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Post by Ultimate Silentking on Feb 19, 2016 10:01:28 GMT -5
Superwoman? Super Sons? The Super-Man? Wonder what that is about. Anyway, hopefully Gotham Academy: Next Semester doesn't get cut early. And will wait for more info for the rest to see if I want them.
Also, 43 more issues until Action Comics reaches #1000. My god that is gonna be huge.
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Post by jayrow75 on Feb 19, 2016 13:52:44 GMT -5
On one hand, I'm really excited for what Rebirth could possibly mean for Dc as a whole. The line has become so aimless outside of a few good titles, that it needs a cohesive focus. The only books Dc is putting out right now that I still enjoy are Justice League, Justice League 3001, Grayson, and Earth 2. On the other hand, while a 2.99 price point sounds great as a sound bite, the fact that a great number of books are going bi-weekly cancels out the value. Don't get me wrong. I'll give as many titles a chance as I can afford. I'm hopeful. I'm just not convinced.
DC4Life -Jay
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Post by thejellyfish on Feb 19, 2016 14:35:39 GMT -5
I'm just happy they're grabbing Sam Humphries. I'm tired of the garbage he's made at Marvel, let him drag someone else down. I'll get excited for the books when I see who the creative teams are.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2016 5:30:43 GMT -5
Except all the fringe characters are getting binned off in favour of more of the same old crap. Some people aren't interested in reading Superman, or Batman. Some of us want Midnighter, Dr Fate, Omega Men and Martian Manhunter. Instead we're left with "Batman and his friend Kevin", and "Superman: Doing his Laundry".
When Rebirth hits, I will only be collecting Hellblazer and Aquaman, which will be going Bi-Weekly. Aquaman has been floundering since Parker and Pellietier left (The Bunn stuff just wasn't very good). It's a shame because they did some decent ground work to get characters like Fate, and Midnight ingrained into the DC world, and we're seeing them float off again in favour of returning to the norm. I know a lot people are going to be happy about returning to the norm, but that doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bath water. Some of what DC did in the Nu52 was really good.
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Post by adrini on Feb 20, 2016 9:09:01 GMT -5
It might be mostly new-52. They aren't saying much for a reason.
I always wanted two lines. Two kinds of fans now.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2016 10:30:42 GMT -5
Well, they've revealed a lot of what's been cancelled, and that's mostly the fringe stuff.
And they've revealed some of what will be replacing those titles, and they're doubling down on Superman and Batman books, which for me, is short sighted. They're aiming to increase market share by over-saturation, which in itself will kill it off all over again. There's only so many Batman titles you can buy before you run out of money/interest.
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Post by adrini on Feb 20, 2016 12:52:35 GMT -5
I want GA. Real GA. It's freaking withdrawal at this point.
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Post by thetrueelec on Feb 20, 2016 18:48:26 GMT -5
I agree that it's disappointing that they've replaced the B-list titles with more Superman and Batman, but they're doing that because the B-listers didn't sell and Bats and Supes do so I can't really be that disappointed.
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Post by thejellyfish on Feb 20, 2016 20:27:26 GMT -5
I think that as long I get some good Wonder Woman stories (probably won't be happening in her own book though), more Guy Gardner, more Nightwing, some interesting Earth 2 stories, and purposeful Green Arrow I'll think I'll be good.
I'm not too happy with the rumored choices for Superman and Wonder Woman, because Tomasi's SM/WW has been bad (he has trouble writing both characters) and I think everyone would rather have Genevieve Valentine or Renae de Liz write Wonder Woman instead of Margeurite Bennett. Tom King is a great choice for Batman. Avoid Sam Humphries like the plague. I'm bummed Clay Mann won't be doing any Marvel work for the time being, but I know why he went to DC (he isn't happy with how the X-Men are being treated in the comics).
I wish the creative teams would be revealed so I know what to buy.
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Post by Drake on Feb 20, 2016 22:03:38 GMT -5
Marguerite Bennet would be a huge step up from the Finches, and would make Wonder Woman a pretty good comic, so I'm on board. I'd rather have Valentine (don't know who de Liz is), sure, but Bennet's not a bad choice. I've never read anything by her that's been bad. Tomasi for Superman, though? No. No way. His GLC and B&R was good, yes, but everything else he's written has sucked. I'll try it, but I'm not optimistic. Hopefully whoever ends up on Action kicks ass. Tom King is an AMAZING choice for Batman. I've liked Humphries' Star Lord comic, so I might give him a chance, but I agree. In general his stories are awful.
EDIT: For me the 'musts' are:
1. Pre-new52 Wally at least in terms of personality
2. JSA (on Earth 2 or not)
3. Aquaman, Flash, and Green Arrow on track again
4. Scott Snyder on something beyond just 'Tec. I want to see what other characters he can nail!
5. Quality writer on JL
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2016 10:33:04 GMT -5
I've read stuff by her that's bad - Earth 2: Worlds End. That was awful.
It's a shame, because the Nu52 came out swinging with loads of great titles (Aquaman and Wonder Woman for example, were reinvigorated) and lots of fringe characters in different genres. And they're all evaporating off, one part due to low sales, which I ask, is it beacuse of low interest, or is it because of the great fanboy wank-fest that is "That'll be cancelled in six issues. I won't buy that". My frustration is that, after Eric Stephenson's great speach, DC are still aiming for the lowest common denominator. Fringe characters/titles don't sell?
Image, Boom, Dynamite, Darkhorse, and Oni make that statement irrelevant. What doesn't make those fringe characters sell is a lack of commitment from DC, and they're not future proofing themselves. They're hitting market share, grabbing with fists of Superman and Batman, without looking at what happens when people get bored of that. Eh, this is the last I will say about it.
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Post by adrini on Feb 21, 2016 12:17:41 GMT -5
The key issue with New-52 is that is split the party. You already had two camps, the classics and the boreds. New-52 was great for the boreds. They wanted something new and this was new. But it entirely drove away the classics. With nothing to read, and being roundly insulted or dismissed when they protested that they wanted something to buy, they evaporated. The initial bump of "sure, I'll try this." was never going to last. To the classics DC is the old world, that's a market reality. Anything else was just going to fail with them. And with them went half the market. If not more. For good or ill it almost didn't matter how good, bad or meh anything new-52 or DC- You had was. They had already removed "pick up comics" from the to-do list and moved on. I would argue that this had been happening to some degree since flashpoint. Though New-52 was a major jumping off point.
Print media generally, not just comics, are in trouble. With the advent of the electronic age they are all (magazines, newspapers, books,graphic novels etc) having a rough time of it. These items need to be bought in an age when a good number of people are getting used to going online and just finding it for free. Cause they already do for so much already. It's a thing now.
And it still remains to be seen just how many people will come back, and even if they do how many go back to ordering the 5/10/15 issues a month they used to. Some people are gone. Period. They've moved on, their lives have moved on, it's over. Some might, but they're going to watch and see what happens first. As a classic myself I know too well that we've been badly burned so coming back can take time. Some will hop on right away, if only make a point. None of this is to say how many issues anyone will be buying. All? One or two to keep an eye on to see if they mean it? I can't say.
The best thing they can do is two lines/worlds. Marvel did it for ages and it was a good idea. You can keep all your people happy, they just reach for the title they actually have an investment in. "Old fogies" have their stuff and the New-52 fans (who do very much exist, just not in numbers to support the comics lines alone) have theirs. Win-win.
However I will say I'm tired of the "big three". More then tired. My "big two" have never been part of that anyway, though, so I guess I'm used to life on the "fringe".
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Post by thetrueelec on Feb 21, 2016 19:26:00 GMT -5
See the problem there is they rebooted because people weren't buying DC so appealing only to a market that has shown they can't keep a line alive seems shortsighted. Even you admit mostof the fans they'd be appealing to would be hesitant to come back, and in a market were books can get cancelled before 3 issues come out that's not something anyone wants. You mention Marvel doing two lines but that's simplifying it a lot, really it was a Spider-man book that kept going because Bendis was on it, a differently named Avengers book, which barely kept above cancellation until it didn't, plus a mini series that was able to go because it was only a mini. Even at the height of the line the only other ongoings were for FF and X-Men. So if DC did do another line it'd almost certainly just be Batman, Superman, JL, and maybe Wonder Woman because it's been shown that a lot of comic fans mostly care about things that 'matter' which the old universe wouldn't.
Also when you say big three are you meaning DC, Marvel, and Image, I ask because I've never really heard of a big three.
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Post by adrini on Feb 21, 2016 19:53:20 GMT -5
Also when you say big three are you meaning DC, Marvel, and Image, I ask because I've never really heard of a big three. Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman. There's an entire subculture of comic readers for whom the old world is all that matters, and it's sizable. You're not in it, but it's there. They had been loosing readers since flashpoint, like I said. New-52 was more of a final straw kind of thing. The majority of the damage had already been done, just more slowly. If you go on discussion boards you will see people calling to bring back "pre-flashpoint". There's a reason for that. Profits were great, sales were great, fanship was strong, writing was good - it was a good time. Then came a reboot, and a reboot, and a reboot. You get the idea. Some good stuff, but it's a fairly marked "beginning of the end" kind of thing. So it's seen as a healthy jumping off point to starting again from a point of strength. Many of the really beloved versions that people still put on shirt and mugs and stuff hail from that time. It's not just the new-52 damage that needs to be addressed here. DC has been chasing off fans for years, it's a problem. Realistically I expect that they've hemmroged too many of their old fans for just the old and has too few new fans for the new one. Being honest here, I really do see the two line option as the only way they win this thing. A lot of the damage is just going to take time and building good faith again to deal with.
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Post by thetrueelec on Feb 21, 2016 21:16:07 GMT -5
I agree there are a lot of people calling for a pre-flashpoint DC but each person saying that has a different version of what that means. Lets take Green Arrow as an example, for some old fans they're Ollie is the guy who travels around with Hal Jordan, for others it's the more 'gritty' Mike Grell run where he kills people, for others still it's Kevin Smith Green Arrow where he's, well, a Kevin Smith character. That's the problem with wanting things to go back to the good old days, everyone agrees they exist but no one can agree when they were.
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Post by adrini on Feb 21, 2016 21:27:50 GMT -5
Oh welcome to the modern world, everyone has their own exact version. Even among new fans you see a variation of what was and wasn't good (our site alone is example of that). The GA example is the same person, just in phases of life. They reference back. That's something I miss, multi-leveled character with history and development. Really gives a character and story gravatos.
But it also feeds from when a person left, and what their preferences are. They want what they are familiar with. And everyone has kinds of stories they really respond to. That's just what people are. It's not easy trying to get everyone in the pool. But from a chronically the POV Flashpoint is a direct moment when things changed, it's a set and defined moment. The argument seems to be what after is worth keeping. I have views on that as well, but the major thing is to try to right the ship again. Anything after that can be dealt with later.
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Post by thetrueelec on Feb 21, 2016 21:50:34 GMT -5
But the ship was sinking when Flashpoint happened so you can't go back to just before Flashpoint, and even if you did there's a whole lot of people who wouldn't come back and a lot more who'd take time to come back, and DC doesn't have time for people to come, it doesn't matter how great a book if it's not selling DC can't keep making it.
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Post by adrini on Feb 21, 2016 22:01:46 GMT -5
It wasn't. That's the point. Don't take my word for it look it up. It was good times. DC has lost sight of their fans period, their sales numbers show that clearly. There are two major market. The new-52 fans (you it seems) and the more traditional minded (me). Thus the "split the party" line. Nor did I say it was perfect. They need to make money. They have fans wanting two things. Even small lines of both would make them money. Some would come back, it's a start. They're in trouble. Knowing what I do, seeing what trends I see, this is what I see as the best chance. There is no silver bullet.
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Post by Drake on Feb 21, 2016 23:59:24 GMT -5
It wasn't. That's the point. Don't take my word for it look it up. It was good times. DC has lost sight of their fans period, their sales numbers show that clearly. There are two major market. The new-52 fans (you it seems) and the more traditional minded (me). Thus the "split the party" line. Nor did I say it was perfect. They need to make money. They have fans wanting two things. Even small lines of both would make them money. Some would come back, it's a start. They're in trouble. Knowing what I do, seeing what trends I see, this is what I see as the best chance. There is no silver bullet. I'm sorry, Adrini, but that first bit isn't correct at all. DC had a reboot for a reason. The books didn't sell. They hadn't in years. Now, the New 52 did not fix the problem in the long run. That much is clear. However, stating that all was well and dandy prior to Flashpoint's reboot is simply incorrect. The writing wasn't necessarily better either. Certainly between Crisis on Infinite Earths and Flashpoint, DC had most of its best stories told. No Flash stories in the New 52, for example, compare to any of the great Wally runs in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s. However, there wasn't much of that after Infinite Crisis. DC's sales went down because the stories were generally bad. Superman hadn't been written well in years (with maybe the exception of Johns' brief stint on Action). I prefer pre-New52 DC to post-Flashpoint DC, but it wasn't perfect. It hadn't even been good in years. There were bright spots, yes, just as there have been for the New 52 and DCYou stories, but overall the writing was mediocre. Sales reflected that. Now, after years of failure, DC HAS to reroute themselves. They need to embrace the things that make them great (legacy, the iconic heroes, epic stories) and move forward. Like Green Lantern: Rebirth and, arguably, Flash: Rebirth, they need to embrace the past but move toward a brighter future. It's the only way they can compete. Two lines won't cut it. It'll split the sales and cause a temporary sales spike for a couple years just like Ultimate Marvel did. You're right, Adrini. They can't rely on one crowd. It can't be the New 52-ers or the old guard. It has to be both (or most of both, anyway). There are ways to do that without two lines, without alienating either party, and without another reboot. It'll take some retconning, sure, but they can do it. They just need to trust their best writers (including Johns) and let them tell good stories.
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Post by thetrueelec on Feb 22, 2016 1:45:01 GMT -5
If it wasn't I can't see a reason for them to reboot though. I'm not a New-52 fan, I'm a fan of good stories and both pre and post flashpoint have had them just as they've had horrible stories. I still don't think the traditionalists are a big enough number that they'd make DC enough money to keep a line going.
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