|
Post by Drake on Sept 8, 2014 21:00:36 GMT -5
We Know Stuff volume 2 begins with THE HEROES and SUPERSTITIOUS AND COWARDLY LOT v2.0!
Expect an Ultimate Outlaws vol 2 issue by Sunday.
|
|
|
Post by DiscipleofBob on Sept 10, 2014 22:42:09 GMT -5
I should probably go back and read all of Wachter's run before giving a full review, but meh.
You are definitely the most talented writer on the site when it comes to emulating other styles. Your Aquaman flowed ((ba-dum-tish)) seamlessly with Stardrifter's run and you've got the same feel going on with Haven, even with a complete change of character.
Was part of the Haven Annual chapter posted originally written by Wachter? I honestly can't tell.
It's a shame that Wachter will never finish telling his story on Jason, but it's probably for the best. I was privy to some of his later plans and shit got weird really fast.
First we've got even more of a flashback with Jason Todd apparently breaking into Stephanie Brown's apartment. It's good, but I'm not sure how relevant it actually is to the story since we're switching to Tim.
The second part is a good introduction to Tim. It's an obvious echo to the first chapter of Haven. Everything from the mysterious villain to the death scene.
It's nice to see you taking pains to keep the same feel as the original Haven, but I do think you should still improve on the flaws of the original Haven as well. Wachter's Haven was convoluted, to say the least, chock full of in-references and obscure riddles and all sorts of things that I couldn't keep up with. I hope your Haven will be a little more coherent at least.
You use the word "Changeling" way too often. And I know it's a reference to Beast Boy's alternate name, but calling the creatures Changelings makes me think they're all baby-kidnapping impersonating fey spirits.
Other than that, the rest of the chapter is good. Harper is a much better character here than she was back in Outsiders.
It'll be interesting to see what direction you take Haven since it's not nearly as clear as Aquaman was.
|
|
|
Post by Drake on Sept 11, 2014 20:17:45 GMT -5
I should probably go back and read all of Wachter's run before giving a full review, but meh. You are definitely the most talented writer on the site when it comes to emulating other styles. Your Aquaman flowed ((ba-dum-tish)) seamlessly with Stardrifter's run and you've got the same feel going on with Haven, even with a complete change of character. Was part of the Haven Annual chapter posted originally written by Wachter? I honestly can't tell. It's a shame that Wachter will never finish telling his story on Jason, but it's probably for the best. I was privy to some of his later plans and shit got weird really fast. First we've got even more of a flashback with Jason Todd apparently breaking into Stephanie Brown's apartment. It's good, but I'm not sure how relevant it actually is to the story since we're switching to Tim. The second part is a good introduction to Tim. It's an obvious echo to the first chapter of Haven. Everything from the mysterious villain to the death scene. It's nice to see you taking pains to keep the same feel as the original Haven, but I do think you should still improve on the flaws of the original Haven as well. Wachter's Haven was convoluted, to say the least, chock full of in-references and obscure riddles and all sorts of things that I couldn't keep up with. I hope your Haven will be a little more coherent at least. You use the word "Changeling" way too often. And I know it's a reference to Beast Boy's alternate name, but calling the creatures Changelings makes me think they're all baby-kidnapping impersonating fey spirits. Other than that, the rest of the chapter is good. Harper is a much better character here than she was back in Outsiders. It'll be interesting to see what direction you take Haven since it's not nearly as clear as Aquaman was. So, I'll just number everything to keep my head on straight as I reply to this. 1. Thanks for the compliment! It takes effort to emulate others' style but it's doable. I guess you just have to be able to absorb content easily. 2. Wachter wrote none of that Annual. Jordan can back me on that. 3. On a similar note, while it was unnecessary, I'd already written it for Wachter in the past and I didn't want it to go to waste so I included it here. 4. The Time scene in the annual is one of the my favorite things I've ever written, if only because I not only thematically and plot-wise mirrored Wacther's first issue of 'Haven, but I did it stylistically too. I'm not just talking the voice, or the humor. Tim's monologue of sorts at the start mirrors Jason, but, as any mirror does, reflected completely. Tim's a rich kid who always wanted to be a hero. Jay was the opposite. Tim was always quite independent and good. Jay...not so much. BUT, this monologue also establishes their similarities too, like how, at this point, they've both stood up on their own as 'Haven's Last Knight and wish to be back in their older days as a sidekick. In fact, I even used some of the same wording as Wachter, only switched a little around. 5. I'm not a convoluted type of guy, which is part of the reason I decided not to pick up Wachter's run directly a few months back. So, you don't have to worry about that. 6. I can't promise much on the Changeling bit but I will tone it down. 7. Glad you liked the rest! The first 4 issues act as an introduction, really bringing the characters and the plot together. After that, it's full speed ahead! Although that's not being fair to the first arc. It's absolutely action-packed!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2014 14:23:22 GMT -5
So, I understand that this is a take from another writer. Without having read the previous writers stuff (Some titles have a lot of content out there, so I will just stick with the new bits for the time being) I have to say, I am not sold on the narrative voice for the first part of the story. I could't work out what it was supposed to be - is it a monologue, because it doesn't seem that way, it seems as though it is an authorial voice, with third person interspaced with it, but...it seems to kind of jangle along. I found it exceptionally jarring to read. I'm not a massive Bat-Family follower, at any rate (although, do read Batwoman and have a small, but dedicated love for Gotham Central, which was something I considered writing prior to Manhunters) so, perhaps that is indicative of how Tim Drake is written elsewhere.
The other scenes were much shorter - it is clear that you like writing Harper and Cullen row a great amount, and I understand you're building up the mystery of Aretmis and Dragon (although, are you saying that anyone can clearly see she is Irish, Native American and Chinese? because if I am honest, I've never looked at someone and dissected their racial background, particularly to that degree of accuracy. I might look at people on the train and possibly consider the idea they might be eastern European, but I've never pointed at someone and gone "Yeah, he's definitely from Eastonian, with a hint of Mongolian".)
I'm interested to see where this is going, but would prefer less of the self-aware authorial quippery in the next installment, and more of looking at the characters and their actions. I do like the idea of the Red Hood gang, although, I think "Let the Justice Fit the Crime" is somewhat more Spectre like, than Bat-Family, but it's the Ultimate world so...it can be whatever you want it to be.
|
|
|
Post by Drake on Sept 12, 2014 17:06:37 GMT -5
The "narrator quips" or however you put it are actually usually Tim's thoughts. It's a habit quite often used (at least in my experience) with POV 3rd person narratives throughout literature (Percy Jackson comes to mind). It'll transition from description to thoughts quite quickly, and you're expected just to follow along. I'd say only about 10% of the "narrative" jokes were my own as the author, as opposed to Tim's. So, on that same note, it's very much in line with Wachter's writing and I'm sorry to say it's very much in line with my own. I like to get deep into my characters' brains without pushing the 1st person narrative. I hope you'll adjust, but if not then this might not be for you.
Naming Artemis' background was a lazy way of me throwing it in. Purely my fault.
Lastly, "Let the Punishment Fit the Crime" is a direct quote and slogan from Grant Morrison's Batman and Robin run, used by Red Hood aka Jason Todd. It was a callback to that comic, and it won't go away any time soon.
|
|
|
Post by Drake on Sept 12, 2014 23:10:52 GMT -5
Ultimate Outlaws volume 2, Dragon is up!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2014 3:21:58 GMT -5
I think it might help if you established that it was Tims thoughts with some tags afterwards.
Perhaps Percy Jackson is a bad example, as it is in fact First Person, not 3rd, which means that the mingling of the thoughts with the narrative works because it's all from one point of view. If you're establishing a 3rd person POV, then having thoughts floating around in the narrative is more like an authorial voice, where you're separating your quips and "thoughts", mean't to be for Tim, as a different voice. So, the Author speaking to the reader, and then we go back to Tim. Perhaps I've just not read many novels with the split combo of 3rd and 1st in that way?
I understand that the transition between thought and action in first person is something you're expected to follow on without an issue, because it's all the same tone and voice, but separating third and first person elements makes a bit of a muddle for this reader.
|
|
|
Post by Drake on Sept 13, 2014 9:17:21 GMT -5
Sorry, I meant Heroes of Olympus. That isn't 1st person.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2014 13:27:00 GMT -5
I've only just read Percy Jackson, to be honest, so I have no idea whether Heroes of Olympus is or not. What I've read, briefly, is that it is fixed point of view third person, so maybe that has something to do with it.
|
|
|
Post by Drake on Sept 15, 2014 18:46:49 GMT -5
Small update while I was bored.....Nightwing in We Know Stuff
|
|
|
Post by thejellyfish on Sept 17, 2014 23:00:35 GMT -5
I have returned with things to say!
Wachter's 'Haven honestly bummed me out. Reading it now feels like a beloved television series that gets cancelled ten episodes in due to ratings (RIP Firefly). It sets up a fun, wonderfully dark, almost noir, mystery that grabs you. Unless, of course, you realize that a lot of the original plans and the stuff that Wachter set up won't be happening. I know Wachter had some weird stuff planned, but I like weird. Weird is good. Honestly, his Ultimate 'Haven reminded me a little bit of Hickman's run on Avengers and New Avengers (which I use as a sort of basis for Astonishing X-Men over at All-Star Marvel). Hickman's Avengers is one of the absolute weirdest things I've ever had the pleasure of reading. It's fantastic.
That brings me to Drake's take on the title. To keep the Avengers comparison going, Drake taking over is like Nick Spencer taking over Avengers after Hickman's run ends (which might happen, although my money's on Soule taking over). A younger writer, just as talented as the previous writer, takes over and brings the series in a similar, but different, direction. Drake's run is more in the present, which is good. I don't even remember what I did for most of 2012, so Wachter's stuff held no relevance to me. The setting needs to be a character that the audience can relate to, and I just couldn't relate to 2012 Bludhaven at all.
The character interactions that Wachter had were great though. Drake's characters haven't met yet, but he sets them up in a way that makes them all very interesting. They're almost like (y'all, wait for it) the Avengers!
Who saw that coming? Everyone? Okay...
An added bonus for Drake is that Jordan is returning to Gotham, bringing plot threads from Wachter's 'Haven with him, which takes a lot of pressure off of Drake (I think) to make a direct sequel to 'Haven. There's also Catman, which wasn't a huge part of 'Haven, but was still there, I guess.
Anyone else just noticing how Ultimate DC has three gritty, noir, street titles? They are outnumbered by all the other books, but three titles is a lot of noir and we haven't even gotten a Question solo series yet. Is it because the background on the site is so dark? You guys should fix that, it bums me out.
Anyways, actual review time. Wachter's run was good, but sadly very unfinished. Drake's run shows promise, but in the end, his first feels more like a #0 or a #.1 than an actual #1. I'm looking forward to more.
Also, this REALLY made me want to write Moon Knight at All-Star Marvel, but that probably won't happen for some silly reasons (X-Men being the least of those reasons).
|
|
|
Post by Drake on Sept 18, 2014 9:40:52 GMT -5
I have returned with things to say! Wachter's 'Haven honestly bummed me out. Reading it now feels like a beloved television series that gets cancelled ten episodes in due to ratings (RIP Firefly). It sets up a fun, wonderfully dark, almost noir, mystery that grabs you. Unless, of course, you realize that a lot of the original plans and the stuff that Wachter set up won't be happening. I know Wachter had some weird stuff planned, but I like weird. Weird is good. Honestly, his Ultimate 'Haven reminded me a little bit of Hickman's run on Avengers and New Avengers (which I use as a sort of basis for Astonishing X-Men over at All-Star Marvel). Hickman's Avengers is one of the absolute weirdest things I've ever had the pleasure of reading. It's fantastic. That brings me to Drake's take on the title. To keep the Avengers comparison going, Drake taking over is like Nick Spencer taking over Avengers after Hickman's run ends (which might happen, although my money's on Soule taking over). A younger writer, just as talented as the previous writer, takes over and brings the series in a similar, but different, direction. Drake's run is more in the present, which is good. I don't even remember what I did for most of 2012, so Wachter's stuff held no relevance to me. The setting needs to be a character that the audience can relate to, and I just couldn't relate to 2012 Bludhaven at all. The character interactions that Wachter had were great though. Drake's characters haven't met yet, but he sets them up in a way that makes them all very interesting. They're almost like (y'all, wait for it) the Avengers! Who saw that coming? Everyone? Okay... An added bonus for Drake is that Jordan is returning to Gotham, bringing plot threads from Wachter's 'Haven with him, which takes a lot of pressure off of Drake (I think) to make a direct sequel to 'Haven. There's also Catman, which wasn't a huge part of 'Haven, but was still there, I guess. Anyone else just noticing how Ultimate DC has three gritty, noir, street titles? They are outnumbered by all the other books, but three titles is a lot of noir and we haven't even gotten a Question solo series yet. Is it because the background on the site is so dark? You guys should fix that, it bums me out. Anyways, actual review time. Wachter's run was good, but sadly very unfinished. Drake's run shows promise, but in the end, his first feels more like a #0 or a #.1 than an actual #1. I'm looking forward to more. Also, this REALLY made me want to write Moon Knight at All-Star Marvel, but that probably won't happen for some silly reasons (X-Men being the least of those reasons). Glad you seemed to like it! As for the character interaction, I'll be focusing on that a little more in the future, specifically in chapters 2 and 3, so you can look forward to that. I think those will be a little funnier and more in spirit with Wachter's 'Haven (especially with how Tim and Artemis interact).
|
|
|
Post by Drake on Oct 9, 2014 19:56:11 GMT -5
V 2-2 is up!
|
|
|
Post by thetrueelec on Oct 9, 2014 23:24:45 GMT -5
Ok so I haven't finished the issue but that Didio crack really took me out of the scene, it's obvious who you are making fun of and it really doesn't serve a point except to make fun of him.
|
|
|
Post by thetrueelec on Oct 10, 2014 0:16:09 GMT -5
Having read the whole issue it was good, but the tone really isn't consistent, most of the scenes have a lighthearted almost comedic feel to them but then you have the whole Harper subplot or domestic abuse being introduced for seemingly no real reason.
|
|
|
Post by Drake on Oct 10, 2014 10:10:26 GMT -5
The Didio thing was definitely just petty commentary. Jordan recommended I do more of it after I did the same (but in a positive light) of Bendis. I'll tone it down in the future.
Tonally I'm just staying consistent to the original Haven run but that's a fair point.
|
|
|
Post by cross on Oct 10, 2014 19:58:54 GMT -5
Honestly I laughed at the Dildo joke but I'm pretty immature when it comes to humor either way I liked it. This issue felt off from the previous one for sure. The humor I enjoyed but with 'Haven being built up as a horrible place and a very dark/gritty book this issue kind of went 180. I am very interested in the red hood gang storyline and where it's going to go. Tim finding Artemis hot and beast boy finding Cassandra hot put me off from the story. Upon thinking about their actions and comments I realized that their thoughts are perfect for their characters. Well done for this. Teenagers would think this way and I tend to lose sight of that. It's refreshing to see these characters act human instead of superhuman.
I'd give this issue a solid 8/10. Not as dark as expected but still fun and lots of characters I like coming in.
|
|
|
Post by Drake on Oct 10, 2014 20:15:25 GMT -5
I'm glad you liked it! Wachter's original run very much built up a use of teenagers and hormones, and I plan to continue that because, as you said, it makes the characters human. As for darkness...well, next issue has that in droves. Harper's story certainly is the most messed up and the grittiest, but it'll still have its humor.
I'm immature with my humor too, cross, and honestly that type of joke is the type of joke teenagers make.
|
|
|
Post by cross on Oct 10, 2014 21:19:52 GMT -5
I forgot to ask about the time with this book. Since Tim was trained by Nightwing then does that mean that this book is set like 10 years after ultimate batman?
|
|
|
Post by Drake on Oct 11, 2014 8:46:08 GMT -5
No, read the last issue of Batman. Jordan's run was a fear toxin induced dream. 'Haven takes place Fall 2014.
|
|