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Post by adrini on Mar 3, 2013 13:06:30 GMT -5
Next chapter.
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Post by Ultimate Silentking on Mar 3, 2013 13:06:55 GMT -5
YAY!
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Post by adrini on Mar 3, 2013 20:23:25 GMT -5
Chapter 1.2 is up.
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Post by Ultimate Silentking on Mar 3, 2013 20:49:18 GMT -5
I don't see it.
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Post by adrini on Mar 3, 2013 21:04:26 GMT -5
Same place, it replaced the old one.
Where do I get one of those fancy headers?
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Post by Ultimate Silentking on Mar 3, 2013 21:12:13 GMT -5
Oh, you were correcting mistakes in the story? Just wondering.
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Post by Stardrifter on Mar 5, 2013 0:12:28 GMT -5
Finally finished the issue. Only other error I would point out is in the last scene, it was hard to follow because you didn't differentiate the text messages in any way. The prose ran into them without any kind of identifier.
Not much else to say that I didn't already. For a first issue, it really failed to catch my interest. I'm just trying to be honest, but nothing happened that would make me want to keep reading were this not a community. There were no glaring errors or anything, it just failed at its job to hook me as a new reader.
That said, I'll keep reading as I'm sure things will pick up. Keep em coming.
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Post by adrini on Mar 7, 2013 11:39:50 GMT -5
Chapter 2 up. Lots of fighting.
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Post by Stardrifter on Mar 7, 2013 16:10:30 GMT -5
Much more interesting this time around. And not just because of fighting. The intrigue was good too.
There were a lot of proofreading issues. You even spelled Adrien's name wrong once in the same paragraph as the correct spelling. Could have used another read through to fix some stuff.
Otherwise it was a good issue. Not sure about Dinah and the Queen's connected history. Felt a little too perfect as I read it. And Dinah's sparring with everyone started to feel a little Mary Sueish until Ollie beat her. But really just minor things. I liked this issue much more than #1. Keep em coming.
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Post by adrini on Mar 7, 2013 18:01:05 GMT -5
Thanks for the heads up on the things to fix, should be easy enough to go back and tweak.
I'm glad it's working out better.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2013 0:23:59 GMT -5
Ok, I finally read the first issue (haven't gotten to #2 yet).
Aside from some technical issues (capitalization of some proper nouns-like Queen Ann-and either typos or diction errors-then/than, or pure typos dinner/diner, scrapped/scraped, and the utter classic crap legs/crab legs) the issue was sound. Others have mentioned it was long and slow, for me that wasn't the issue-for me the issue was that for all that was there, there was too much that wasn't there.
When we are told that Roy was nearly as young as Ollie it come as a complete surprise to me that Ollie was young. Nothing had been done to establish that or to describe him, and this was our introduction to him.
Also, a lot of times writers like to keep readers in the dark about things to build suspense or hook them in for later reveals-I am way guilty of this myself, but in order for that to work there has to be something given to reader as bait. Here, we were jsut totally in the dark-Jax and Rivers-maybe some kind of troubleshooters, who knows we got names and told they were called in 'just in case' but why that is-who knows we got nothing. The head of the military wing seems shady and like he might be hiding something-or that could just be how he is, again we got nothing to nibble on as bait to hook me in; the mysterious project that has to go to peer review that will revolutionize things, should catch my interest but after so many other things that are hinted but never given anything of substance to grab a hold of I am starting to write it off as just another dead end source of frustration rather than something I should be interested in, and then I get mystery girlfriend...
So many things thrown out there, none of them given enough play or development to pique my interest and want to know more, so for all of the 6000 words of length there felt like there was little of substance to actually build a foundation on.
The dialogue in the interactions looked promising, the problem was that it was for the most part names talking, with no hint of visual definition, and what little there was was lost in the sea of words and the muddle of mundaneness that swallowed up Ollie.
It almost would have been better served to start with a vignette of Ollie in action as Arrow and then cut to 6 months ago or three months ago and start where you did to hook in the readers a little more and give them that foundation you said you wanted to start with.
I cop to my bias against origin stories, especially long drawn out ones, but when the first installment is awash with so many mundane details it's hard to get a sense of what the series is or will be about.
The frustrating thing is there is a lot of potentially cool aspects hidden in the story-Green Arrow as a true champion of green living, the seeming dynamic between Ollie and Dinah (who I am not sure I like as a true blonde btw), the Diggle Ollie dynamic, etc. but they are lost in a sea of other stuff that just drowns out what they offer.
A lot would have been better if you had art accompanying the story as comics do, but you don't and the writer has to remember that prose is not a visual medium even when telling stories of a visual nature as comic super hero stories are. When telling the story in prose, it has to do the work of both the comic script and the comic art. The visual aspect for the reader's mind's eye was definitely lacking in this story, and because it was slow moving anyways it definitely hurt the overall impact of the story you were trying to execute.
If you want to hook the reader in, you need to give them more before you pull it away and say come back for more. You didn't give enough before pulling it away so I never got sucked in by the treat you were offering to tease me with.
The devils in the details-Ollie looks, etc. And where the hell is Burandia (or whatever the country was called) the only indication you gave me was the time zone difference but I didn't feel like doing the math to figure out where on the globe that put it, and as a reader I shouldn't have to. And if you did give it to me it got lost in the sea of words that overwhelmed everything else.
So overall, I like what you are trying to do from what I could glimpse of it, but it needed a serious revision (not just a copy edit) to make sure that every word, every scene that was there needed to be there and that it had a goal to accomplish and accomplished that goal.
There is a school of thought in writing that there should be no scene without a turn-what that means is that every scenes needs to affect the characters in it, to change some value from positive to negative or negative to positive..i.e. the story is about a relationship, each scene/beat reveals something of the relationship-to start the guy doesn't have a girl, but in the scene he meets girl (negative to positive), but then learns she is married to her work and not interested (positive to negative, etc. Each scene reveals something about the character and effects a change moving the story along. If it doesn't, it doesn't belong in the story as it is superfluous. I don't necessarily subscribe to that school, but this issue to me had a lot of superfluous elements that detracted from the overall flow and impact of the story and should have wound up on the cutting room floor. While they may have been well-written they weren't essential to the story you were telling and cluttered and crowded out the important elements.
It wasn't about enough action, it was that the issue was overpopulated with mundaneness that needed to be cut to allow the drama and action that was there to stand out more.
Again there is a lot of potential here, which is why I was so frustrated reading this.
-M
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Post by adrini on Mar 23, 2013 11:06:18 GMT -5
Chapter one is a thorn in my side as I am trying to do the things you mentioned (so at least I'm on the right track) and they are not happening. Sadly my editor just finished his own book and has to edit it to get it to his own publisher meaning I'm trying to work it out on my own. Any help offered will be happily accepted and I will be taking the suggestions here and putting them to work.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2013 7:43:13 GMT -5
You know what? I read Green Arrow #1 a week ago, when I was at work, as I am now, and tried to work out what I thought about it. I think it's a difficult thing to do, as I think this issue comes from someone who doesn't necessarily read a whole bunch of comics, and isn't necessarily interested in the whole 'action' elements of comics.
This feels a lot more like intrigue, drama and politics. Nothing wrong with that, a lot of TV programs etc make a lot of mileage of that sort of thing, but as comic readers, we're trained to not necessarily play the long game. Sure, a lot of us do when we write, but as readers we want instantaneous answers, action and adventure.
While I agree with some of the points about it being an exceptionally long issue, because it was, I'm not sure it was boring. It wasn't traditional, by any stretch, but it was a different and interesting start.
It could have done with being pared down a little, things being given a chance to be left unsaid. There's a lot of showing in this issue, as I've mentioned before in other reviews I've written. Not going to say I'm not guilty of it, but it is something I watch out for. Why tell the reader something directly when you have much more of a laugh showing it in dialogue etc?
Speech attribution needs to be a bit clearer at times, throughout the issues, but hey, minor complaint right? Sorry, people are back from Lunch. I'll post a much more detailed review later but...for a first issue this was about people and about their lives, and not about capes. A different view, but not necessarily, a bad one.
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Post by adrini on Apr 26, 2013 17:18:25 GMT -5
Ya, chapter one had to be gone through to get to the others but I'm still not happy with it. I will hit on several (very good) points you made.
Firstly the shadow and intrigue. For good or ill (and there seems to be some disagreement) that is part of the hand I drew in writing Green Arrow. He and his clan get cloaked and daggered all the freakin' time. Hell, in the comics he and Dinah couldn't even get married without the Amazons deciding that they were going to pull a fast one to try to make Dinah join them by kidnapping him. Does it get old? Yes. Hell yes. Oh lord yes. But that's the world I'm writing in so it needs to be included. It could be done MUCH better, though. I'm on the forth rewrite of the silly thing and I still don't think it's nearly what it should be. I take any and all suggestions on improvement and I would be more then happy to hear yours.
Action Scenes: The bane of my writing...until now. This is an origin story, and beyond that one of a very normal(ish) life that has to be changed in fairly exact ways. The Queen clan has a tragic recent history (dead parents) and other wise was the hipster version of "Leave it to Beaver" up till now. This changes of course, but the happy, non-violent, sappy and loving family center remains the same. They become super heros but they are, before anything else, a family. Some people (like me) really like that. Others want a more dark knight fight and dodge. It's a preference. But we are writing stories based off comics and even in the comics they have conversations in the kitchen about dinner and up coming trips. Like families do. It takes time to build enough tension to get to the violent bits. But it does happen.
I'm glad you didn't find it boring, and I do admit it was long. Believe it or not I am trying to fix that. The speech thing is a work in progress.
Also, not to make excuses, but this was the first creative thing I had written in....five years? Maybe more. I'm a perfectionist by nature, but at the same time I was shocked and pleased that the people on the site didn't come after me with pitch forks for how terrible it was, even if I am trying to make it better.
So thank you for the fead back, and I mean that truly, and please keep letting me know what I can do to improve. I love DC and I was raised on the Emerald Archer so I really, really want to do this right.
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Post by Stardrifter on Apr 27, 2013 20:33:49 GMT -5
The Good:
Some nice character moments and background. I liked the background we got on their relationship.
The Iffy
The letter at the end was weird. At first I thought they were getting eloped. But if they were going to get up at noon, why wouldn't Ollie wait to tell them? Ollie is a bit eccentric, but I found it a bit hard to believe.
The Ugly
Some run on sentences. Nothing too egregious.
All in all a decent issue. Just not sure about where its going. But I'll keep reading, so keep em coming.
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Post by The Wonderful Wachter on May 2, 2013 12:06:26 GMT -5
I know I sorta reviewed Issue 1 but that was totally based on my read from before it was ever posted so I'll go with a review of all issues (#1.2-#3). I'm also not gonna focus on all the critiques that have been done to death already.
In reading it as a whole... I decided that first chapter, even if you call it a bane and many people have pointed out its flaws, is actually well thought out and needed. Yes. A small vignette could have been done of Ollie as Green Arrow but that's unneeded given the story you're telling. The business, the intrigue, the family dynamics... These aren't things the site usually see and you do the decently even though the actions are off. Who cares about the lack of action the intrigue and Ollie's personality kept me going.
For issue two...I'm gonna go with MRP and second the whole deal with proofing. Sparring (as sparing) was especially jarring and given that it was used numerous times, it began hurting.
This is a written medium. One of the few acclaims I receive (and a few critiques for doing it too much) is that I make sure to paint a scene and make sure it's not just standing and chatting even if it is standing and chatting.
Star might recognize this pattern and it's one that I use when I have trouble. Dialogue, Dialogue, two paragraphs of reactions/actions/description, dialogue, repeat. There's really nothing wrong with that just as there is nothing wrong with witty back and forth for a couple of lines.
I'm happy to see my advice with the fights worked and made sense within the story. I'm still not sure if Shado is good, bad, or ugly as is Ollie's business associate.
Deathstroke was a giant disapointment. Not only did I not know what sort of Slade I was getting. Those assumptions we all have... That's not the sort of mistake I see him making.
I also suggest using the coding to try and make things easier on the eyes.
Now for Issue 3 The Ollie and Dinah moments were fantastic. A bit of the paragraphs turned into walls of text even when I was full screen. And proofing was yet again another major issue.
There were quite a few touching moments in the issue and given that we're quickly learning that this is a character/family piece... I think Miller might have been wrong in talking you out of whatever he was talking you out of with the Quiver of Hope deal. That's your title. Not Green Arrow (unless the shit hits the fan in ways that will totally ruin what you've been building.)
The opposite side of that coin. I did something similar with Spoilers where I made it about the characters and their relations, not the action... But you're rapidly approaching the point where you need hit the resolution of the first arc and have things start getting wild for a moment before they settle back down.
Green Arrow is not a bad title. It's not a great title. It's a different title and sometimes it takes sitting back and reading it as a whole before you realize "Wow. Okay... This fits."
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Post by Stardrifter on May 5, 2013 15:18:10 GMT -5
This issue wasn't bad. Some errors. Early on you used the wrong code for italics. I enjoyed the crossover, even if it did spoil some things for 'Haven. When is this series and 'Haven taking place in regards to each other?
Nice character work and intrigue. You are juggling a lot of characters and plot lines at once. I do think you need to get to some sort of arc conclusion soon. Keep em coming.
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Post by adrini on May 5, 2013 16:36:33 GMT -5
The arch contains one smaller arch and one big one. The smaller one is next chapter. It also gets the characters out of the house which I'm looking forward to.
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Post by The Wonderful Wachter on May 5, 2013 20:51:54 GMT -5
First Scene Reactions:
Man, they do love green pigments. And you forgot to adjust the coding for proboards in certain spots. We use [ i ] not <I>. Also not sure if you meant Sherwood instead of Shirwood. Must be something special about the minister (besides plot on needing to make the wedding wait). Given how many people are close to them, you'd think Roy or Diggle would man up and get ordained.
Second Scene Reactions:
I like the changes you made and you managed to fix a majority of the mistakes I made when I threw the scene together based on what you had given me to go on. Feels like I can't really comment on it considering how much of the scene was typed by my hand.
I don't think finesse was the word I was looking for. I'm sure there was a very specific one out there that I meant but you tidied that bit up nicely.
Oh... Can't say I'm entirely pleased with the change when Dinah asked Ollie for a favor but I'm assuming you made it after our numerous discussions these past few days with what/who all Dinah knows. It just reads awkward.
Third Scene Reactions: It was nice to see a better look into Dinah's past but I feel certain bits could have used better wording. Probably the weakest overall.
Overall Reactions:
Now that I know what I'm getting when coming into the series, I like it for what it is. There were far less mistakes than usual in this issue but the reason the third reads the weakest is because it has the most mistakes (to me at least). I like that this is a "family" title and I might just move it to Teams to better express that since your utilization of your cast on whole is better than some of our Team Titles. Certainly better than what I've shown with Haven in the same amount of issues.
You are improving. You're starting to find your groove. If there is one thing I don't like, it has to be Slade. He had this tiny, pathetic little scene where his job went wrong and he hasn't been seen or heard from since. I can only assume it is a choice on your part but I can't say it's a choice I approve of.
And to keep track of my reviews for the month... this makes 5
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Post by The Wonderful Wachter on May 5, 2013 21:08:24 GMT -5
I enjoyed the crossover, even if it did spoil some things for 'Haven. When is this series and 'Haven taking place in regards to each other? It takes place some time after the opening monologue in Issue 3. Not too long after. I mention that Wildcat left the city and he did... He ended up in that dive bar in the middle of nowhere that Dinah called. One wasn't a spoiler but rather an answer to a mystery from my first issue. Well... Answers. The second bit of that bit could be considered a spoiler since I haven't posted Issue 4 yet which would have made it more obvious. Now the obvious spoiler, Kate's condition and why Jason felt abandoned... Not sure how to best describe it. Since Jason's tale takes place in 2012 and my opening monologues will give hints and spoilers themselves... I had Adrini do it this way because... uh... how should I phrase it? It's an answer. That's just all it is. If you're reading everything you find out in Green Arrow sooner than you would in 'Haven which fits with my motif of always looking for clues. But it is something that was foreshadowed in scene between Kate and Renee in Haven 3. --- Apologies, Adrini, for the brief hijacking of your topic.
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