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Post by DiscipleofBob on Jul 22, 2014 19:49:03 GMT -5
This thread is opening up two issues for discussion, two issues which historically have caused problems for the site in the past, but are nonetheless tropes that would be difficult to ban from the site completely.
Time Travel and the Multiverse.
It'd be impossible to ban Time Travel completely, but even a casual use of Time Travel can really screw things up for other writers. Change too much of the past and it messes up other backstories and histories other writers have in mind. Do anything set in the future, and even a minor detail can contradict what other writers have planned for their stories. At the very least, it becomes a plot hole. At worst, it ruins or even spoils other ongoing titles.
On the other hand, even if most characters could survive without a time travel factor, for others' it's a staple of the genre, like Booster Gold, Rip Hunter, etc.
So there needs to be some kind of balance between the two, some guidelines we can hopefully all agree on, so one writer doesn't alter history in a way that offends other writers.
On a related, but still separate issue, the Multiverse.
I'll admit it, I'm a sucker for parallel universe storylines in any medium. Especially with the New52 Multiversity book coming out, I've gotten a few questions on this and I'd expect more. This is something I started to delve into when I first became admin with the Nightmare Universe stories, but after a few one shots it was kind of dropped to help develop our main continuity some more. We're in a somewhat more stable place now, and while I'd love to read some alt-universe fics, there are two issues I have that need to be addressed:
1) The Multiverse can't be completely defined by just one writer. At the very least we need to discuss parallel universes that multiple writers can engage in, other one-shot universes, how best to classify and label these universes, how to arrange them on the board, and the claims process not only for alternate versions of existing characters, but for the universes themselves. I have a few ideas I've been working on over times, but when I say that the multiverse can't be defined by just one writer, that includes me, so I'll post my proposal in a bit and let others weigh in.
2) There's a large potential for abuse for writer to literally go off into their own little world where they don't have to worry about working with other writers on the site, which goes against what we're trying to do here. So what should we do to make sure something like that doesn't happen?
Please feel free to share your own thoughts and any other issues you can think of. This is a thread for discussion.
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Post by adrini on Jul 22, 2014 20:21:15 GMT -5
I'll come out and admit I've have really bad experiences with both of these. Reasons and issues follow.
Time travel:
Firstly I find this more then a little lazy. We have way too many unfounded titles and missing major characters, and we want to worry about metropolis in 3015? Why? We don't have enough to do in the present day?
Additionally every future work I've ever seen has made wide sweeping statements about the world. The fate of earlier worlds, and the history of characters and often world writers are still using or might still use. To be fair it would be hard for them not to, the nature of writing in the future is to include spoilers. With so much ground work still to be done it just isn't a good idea at present.
The only exception to this is something like Booster Gold, that really almost has to be future based. But it has to be done very, very carefully.
The multiverse:
Oh boy but I have issues with this one.
If future is a distraction, multiverse is a full out avoiding the responsibility of world building in the first place. In addition it often requires characters outside one writers given world and is a handy way to get around prior and official claims to create forms of characters claimed writers would not approve. Any multiverse needs to be highly, highly regulated.
Once the world is actually established both of these are fine, great even, but establishment HAS to come first.
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Post by Question on Jul 22, 2014 21:42:02 GMT -5
Caveat: I have a boner for time travel stories.
I don't see a problem with time travel at all as long as the author restricts themselves to only giving details relevant to the title in general or the specific time travel story. Obviously, without say, a JLA title or something, someone shouldn't write a story where Per Degaton goes back in time and is revealed to have murdered the Waynes. But a story where someone casually mentions that Green Lantern saved the planet that one time? Even if it's offscreen, it can easily be either an inconsequential story that wasn't written about because it affects nothing or even just a detail that someone in the future got wrong; not everyone's an historian today, after all, so it's silly to expect people in the future would be as well.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Jul 22, 2014 21:53:50 GMT -5
Caveat: I have a boner for time travel stories. I don't see a problem with time travel at all as long as the author restricts themselves to only giving details relevant to the title in general or the specific time travel story. Obviously, without say, a JLA title or something, someone shouldn't write a story where Per Degaton goes back in time and is revealed to have murdered the Waynes. But a story where someone casually mentions that Green Lantern saved the planet that one time? Even if it's offscreen, it can easily be either an inconsequential story that wasn't written about because it affects nothing or even just a detail that someone in the future got wrong; not everyone's an historian today, after all, so it's silly to expect people in the future would be as well. And I think minor details like that which could conceivably be wrong would be fine. But you do have more extreme examples. What if a Kamandi title said that the world and all its heroes were destroyed in 2020 or something? I'd think Superman would have something to say about that for example.
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Post by adrini on Jul 22, 2014 21:58:00 GMT -5
Minor, assumed details I see as a fairly safe area. Clear with writer just to paranoid, but very much something I see as okay.
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Post by Question on Jul 22, 2014 22:12:02 GMT -5
Caveat: I have a boner for time travel stories. I don't see a problem with time travel at all as long as the author restricts themselves to only giving details relevant to the title in general or the specific time travel story. Obviously, without say, a JLA title or something, someone shouldn't write a story where Per Degaton goes back in time and is revealed to have murdered the Waynes. But a story where someone casually mentions that Green Lantern saved the planet that one time? Even if it's offscreen, it can easily be either an inconsequential story that wasn't written about because it affects nothing or even just a detail that someone in the future got wrong; not everyone's an historian today, after all, so it's silly to expect people in the future would be as well. And I think minor details like that which could conceivably be wrong would be fine. But you do have more extreme examples. What if a Kamandi title said that the world and all its heroes were destroyed in 2020 or something? I'd think Superman would have something to say about that for example. Most time travel stories, by their very nature, involve alternate futures or pasts. I wouldn't see a problem with that theoretical Kamandi story just being another one in the multiverse, assuming that the world being destroyed in 2020 was absolutely integral to their plans for whatever reason. That'd just be something the admins would have to discuss with the writer before approving the title.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Jul 22, 2014 22:39:22 GMT -5
See then we get into the nature of "alternate timelines" and "parallel universes" and what should be allowed there.
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Post by Stardrifter on Jul 22, 2014 22:43:40 GMT -5
I have a somewhat unique perspective in that I has the Time Masters series briefly. At the time I was working with Wachter as admin, but I had a shit ton of hoops to jump through for that. And a lot of those hoops were things I suggested myself, because time travel and alternate realities are a giant can of worms.
I had to assure him that despite the time and reality travelling that it would at it's core be set in our universe. For every single alternate reality or other time version of a character I had to get permission from whoever had the claim. Sometimes it was easy and sometimes it was a real pain.
In the end, I would suggest these ground rules.
1. No titles based around other time or alternate realities unless there's a corresponding title in DC's real lineup. So if someone wants to do Booster Gold, Legion, or Crime Syndicate that's okay, but no one can just claim say, Random Alternate Reality Batman for a series.
2. No titles that are set primarily in an alternate reality/time. This one might be controversial, even possibly hypocritical of me, but I think it's the only way to keep the focus on building our world. If someone does a Crime Syndicate series, the story should HAVE to be about them coming to our world and getting stuck there somehow. If someone does a Legion or Booster Gold story, they should have to be about those characters coming to our time. It also solves any issues with setting up their future, since by coming to our time they're altering said future.
3. Random arcs within normal titles that involve time travel or alternate realities? Whatever. If DoB wants to do a story where Superman goes to a world where Etrigan is a giant shrimp, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Of course bringing someone back from the alternate dimension or timeline would require claims and permissions, a one off story about it? I don't think it would be a problem. Just say it's the "anything that can happen, does happen" view of space and time and be done with it.
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Post by Stardrifter on Jul 22, 2014 22:55:27 GMT -5
To elaborate a bit on #2
Unlike a comic company, we don't have Editors keeping continuity in line(although neither do the comic companies sometimes...ZING!) We don't have anyone in charge to say, "No you can't do a future where Superman wears diapers" or "Yes you can do a Justice League 3000 series."
We're all making this up ourselves and as such are our own Editors as it were. So I don't think any of us want one person with say a Legion title dictating what the future of our world is. So the only fair way to do it is to say it's an alternate future, but once you say that, what's the point of there being a Legion title set in an alternate future? They aren't adding anything to the board beyond a hopefully good story. There's very little possibility for crossovers and interaction.
So the only way that seems to work would be to have them come to our time and be a part of our world. IMO.
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Post by C_Miller on Jul 23, 2014 6:24:02 GMT -5
Caveat: I have a boner for time travel stories. I don't see a problem with time travel at all as long as the author restricts themselves to only giving details relevant to the title in general or the specific time travel story. Obviously, without say, a JLA title or something, someone shouldn't write a story where Per Degaton goes back in time and is revealed to have murdered the Waynes. But a story where someone casually mentions that Green Lantern saved the planet that one time? Even if it's offscreen, it can easily be either an inconsequential story that wasn't written about because it affects nothing or even just a detail that someone in the future got wrong; not everyone's an historian today, after all, so it's silly to expect people in the future would be as well. And I think minor details like that which could conceivably be wrong would be fine. But you do have more extreme examples. What if a Kamandi title said that the world and all its heroes were destroyed in 2020 or something? I'd think Superman would have something to say about that for example. I'd say you should trust the writers to not write something stupid like that. And if they do, we should cross that bridge when we come to it, not before. I've made my point in the admin forum, but I think that if you take a major storytelling element from the source material that we're writing about off the table, you're hurting more than you're helping.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Jul 23, 2014 7:23:46 GMT -5
I'd say you should trust the writers to not write something stupid like that. And if they do, we should cross that bridge when we come to it, not before. I've made my point in the admin forum, but I think that if you take a major storytelling element from the source material that we're writing about off the table, you're hurting more than you're helping. The entire purpose of this thread is so we don't have to take it completely off the table and establish some ground rules so the above doesn't happen. The approach of "don't worry about it until it's already a problem, unless it becomes a problem in which case don't worry about it" isn't an option. Even the best writers here are capable of what in their minds seems like a good idea at the time, but in reality negatively affect all the writers here. Not to mention the occasional new writer we get as well.
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Post by Question on Jul 23, 2014 7:59:59 GMT -5
Maybe the rule should just be to talk to the admins before using time travel, and it can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis rather than have one sweeping rule no one would be completely happy with.
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Post by adrini on Jul 23, 2014 8:51:34 GMT -5
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
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Post by Stardrifter on Jul 23, 2014 9:03:01 GMT -5
Maybe the rule should just be to talk to the admins before using time travel, and it can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis rather than have one sweeping rule no one would be completely happy with. I could see that being a problem though. Without a clear cut rule and transparency, a writer who is denied their time travel story could get pissed off when another writer's story is approved and it was all done behind closed doors.
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Post by adrini on Jul 23, 2014 9:39:31 GMT -5
Agreed. This has to be done openly
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Post by buck on Jul 23, 2014 10:30:45 GMT -5
Star, I have to disagree with the second rule you've proposed there. I think that would completely cripple the Legion experience. If we dictate that a Legion title must be about a Legion Lost scenario we limit the scope and appeal of the Legion. Same thing goes for an Anthro or Kamandi title.
The first one is one that has been in the rules in the past,but we cut it somewhere along the way knowing that the admins would deny claims for alternate versions of already claimed characters for their own titles.
The third one has also always been an unwritten rule which goes along with Chris viewpoint of trusting the writers.
My only worry about this is if we regulate and make too many rules about Time Travel/Alternate Futures/Alternate Dimensions that we could end up in a situation where they aren't viable storytelling options.
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Post by Stardrifter on Jul 23, 2014 10:46:18 GMT -5
I know in previous iterations of the board I was very much against future set titles. We had a vampire Batman and a Jonah Hex series both set in a post apocalyptic future that had no connection to what the rest of us were doing and made a pretty definitive view of the boards future.
The problem is that I don't think any one should be able to dictate "this is our world's future." It's not fair to the rest of us and then it causes issues with continuity. Sure you could set Legion in the year 3000 and make little mention of the future of Earth, but then what's the point? It has nothing to do with the rest of the board. Make it an alternate future and you have the same problem.
I agree that not being able to do a Legion story set in the future limits it's appeal, but that's the problem with the nature of what we're doing here. It's a shared universe we all are shaping and have equal say on. Letting anyone write the future of that universe, without stating definitively that it's a possible/alternate future, gives them too much power and say over the rest of us.
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Post by buck on Jul 23, 2014 11:08:38 GMT -5
The post apocalyptic world presented in Batman was always just a potential future. It was never meant to be a definitive view of the boards future. The Hex and Supergirl series that used the setting where writers attempting to make lemonade from the lemons we were given and trying to embrace the collaborative nature of the site. I can't speak for the other writers involved, but I never considered the world we were building in the future to be the future the board was building towards.
I agree that no writer should be allowed to say this is the future, but every writer who wants to should be allowed to say this is a possible future if they would like. Just because a legion title is set in the year 3000 doesn't mean it has nothing to do with the rest of the board. There's been countless times the Legion has played ball with the rest of the universe (Superboy & the Legion, Supergirl & the Legion, Legion Lost, Great Lightning Saga, Bart Allen, etc.). Just playing devil's advocate, but I could make an argument that Green Lantern needs to be set on Earth because when it's in space it has nothing to do with the rest of the board.
But in summary yeah I agree with you.
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Post by Drake on Jul 23, 2014 11:10:34 GMT -5
I think that future and time travel stories should be allowed, but it should be a rule that any future established is a possible future. It still leaves it open to actually happening, but it also could not.
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Post by Stardrifter on Jul 23, 2014 11:34:16 GMT -5
I don't recall any mention of those futures being only possible ones, but it's all in the past(heh!) anyway.
And GL being set in space is still the present time of our universe and adds to it. And any other series that goes into space can interact with them.
Setting a series in a possible future just seems pointless to me. Sure it could be a good story but it seems an exercise in futility if it's not the actual future. And yeah you could have time travel crossovers, but unless your premise is something like I was going to do with Time Masters where the entire point is time travel, the crossovers are either going to be few and far in between or so often it's ridiculous.
In the end I would be fine with a Legion series that clearly states it's not the actual future of our universe. Just doing so seems fruitless IMO.
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