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Post by Question on Jul 23, 2014 11:59:09 GMT -5
Maybe the rule should just be to talk to the admins before using time travel, and it can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis rather than have one sweeping rule no one would be completely happy with. I could see that being a problem though. Without a clear cut rule and transparency, a writer who is denied their time travel story could get pissed off when another writer's story is approved and it was all done behind closed doors. Which is why the admin in question wouldn't just say yes or no, but would explain why it was denied. If your story is denied because of whatever reason, and another time travel story isn't, you can probably assume that whatever was wrong with your story wasn't a problem with the accepted one. If you're going to get butthurt over that, then you're probably going to get butthurt about something else anyway. In the end, I'm more about writer freedom than anything else, though. If you have a time travel story you want to tell, you should be able to. Who cares if it isn't immediately adding anything to every title? Legion of Super-Heroes and Batman have had concurrently running titles without overtly adding to one another's stories too.
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Post by adrini on Jul 23, 2014 13:56:44 GMT -5
GL is space based, but interacts with earth and is part of the general universe. It's always been the case.
Multiverse and time travel are things that can (and within comics have) wrecked real havoc on a regular basis. If a regular story need pacing and work any story using these are only more so. I don't think it should be impossible, but it should certainly be a production.
I also understand there's an unwritten law that characters are claimed across universes and time. Write that.
Largely my concern is the distraction. We have a ton of work to do just to get our present day up and running. So aside from basic characters like Booster Gold we need to keep our focus where it is till phase one is done. Then we'll have lots of fun pieces to play with.
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Post by Drake on Jul 23, 2014 20:05:37 GMT -5
I'm with Question. Writer freedom is always a priority of mine. I don't think there should be a ton of restrictions on time travel and alt. universes.
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Post by C_Miller on Jul 23, 2014 20:51:20 GMT -5
GL is space based, but interacts with earth and is part of the general universe. It's always been the case. Multiverse and time travel are things that can (and within comics have) wrecked real havoc on a regular basis. If a regular story need pacing and work any story using these are only more so. I don't think it should be impossible, but it should certainly be a production. I also understand there's an unwritten law that characters are claimed across universes and time. Write that. Largely my concern is the distraction. We have a ton of work to do just to get our present day up and running. So aside from basic characters like Booster Gold we need to keep our focus where it is till phase one is done. Then we'll have lots of fun pieces to play with. Why is Booster Gold the only exception? Because if it's because time travel is part of his character, I can find you times where every single character has dealt with time travel and alternative universes. It's a comic things. This is a site for comic fanfiction. I don't think Buck and I are making too many jumps in logic.
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Post by adrini on Jul 23, 2014 21:29:16 GMT -5
Why is Booster Gold the only exception? Because if it's because time travel is part of his character, I can find you times where every single character has dealt with time travel and alternative universes. It's a comic things. This is a site for comic fanfiction. I don't think Buck and I are making too many jumps in logic.[/quote] As is it literally written into his back story. Others have had brushes and moments, but they aren't core events. Core background > random writer was on an acid trip that month and decided "why not?" for all we know. We need CORE titles. Basic people. We have one writer doing both superman and wonder woman alone. I'm trying to get through BOP so I can pick up another title and build that much more myself. We had to beg Star to come back and finish Aquaman. Batman has jumped writers so often I'm beginning to wonder if it's really some online version of hot potato. I get that you two want to get to the freaky fun multiverse and time travel stuff, I read comics to. They can be fun as hell. But we just aren't there, there's to much left to do on the core level. If you want to get the site to the point that this becomes plausible pick up a title and get us that much closer. A lot of people are working really hard to get the site there and we would be glad for the help.
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Post by Stardrifter on Jul 23, 2014 22:15:40 GMT -5
As an aside, I don't necessarily agree with the "core titles" idea. I get the desire to make the site like the comics, but there's no reason our JLA has to have the Big 7. Whose to say Jason Blood can't be one of the Big 7 of our universe? Or Firestorm? Or B'wana Beast?
IMO, the "core titles" of the board should be the ones we make them, not the ones we assume they should be because of the comics. At least that's how I see it.
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Post by adrini on Jul 23, 2014 22:35:22 GMT -5
I'm open to an non-traditional JL. But whoever ends up being in it - we have no league right now.
We have a hall of justice, we can talk logistics about who gets where.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Jul 23, 2014 23:27:05 GMT -5
While people keep mentioning the rights of writers to do time travel storylines, what also has to be considered are the rights of existing writers whom the time travel affects.
It is very, very easy for time travel stories to screw up continuity for existing writers. Even talented, skilled writers can make accidental sweeping changes that screw things up for other writers. We've had storylines taken place in the past that would have screwed things up for everyone if the historical changes had remained in continuity, and we've had future storylines that make broad assumptions about the outcome of the present, and neither are fair to the writers who are working in the present.
So the general consensus is that if you have claim over a character, you have claim over every version of that character across the multiverse. I would agree, but then that means that any "alternate future" or "alternate world" storyline just became really difficult without the express consent of every active writer on the site. To use Stardrifter's example, if someone wants to take the story to an alt universe/future where Etrigan is a giant shrimp, and Stardrifter's fine with it, then okay. But if that same story wants to make Green Arrow a giant shrimp, even if this is an alternate universe with no bearing on the main universe, Adrini would still have every right to veto the use of Green Shrimp Arrow, even if the only reason is it makes her feel uncomfortable. Because right now, that's still her character, and in any alternate universe or future, Adrini would get the first and final say on what happens to other versions of her characters.
This makes alternate futures somewhat problematic. If you wanted to create a post-apocalyptic alt future for example, you would need to explain why the many active superheroes were unable to prevent the apocalypse in a way that all existing writers can agree on. Because what might be an inconsequential detail to one writer could be a major issue to another.
I'm beginning to think that any parallel universe or alternate future needs to go through some kind of approval process, and not just through the admins, in order to be created without stepping on toes.
Regarding Star's proposal that titles existing purely in alternate futures/timelines be restricted and its rebuttals, it may handicap a potential Legion title, but Star does have a point. This site is supposed to be constructing a shared universe. If a title exists all in its own little universe it's not contributing towards that goal. At worst, it's cutting off characters and claims from writers who would tie them into the main continuity. Maybe restricting it to characters being forced into the present is a bit much, but maybe there should be a restriction that all titles no matter the setting have to have some tie to the main continuity. That way a potential Legion writer could always potentially do something like bring a present character to Legion times in order to establish a connection.
It's a shame. I've seen two potential pitch ideas for Legion titles that took place in the present, but neither really made it to an official claims list.
Maybe at some point we could let writers do an Elseworlds or a What If series or mini set completely in an alt universe, but only if they have another active title that contributes to the main continuity.
For time travel, it seems like at the bare minimum before a writer uses time travel as part of their story, they should at the very least contact the admins first, so at least we can be aware and ready to try and nip any plot holes, continuity errors, or excessive history changes in the bud.
I think what Adrini means by core titles isn't necessarily the Big 7 or anything like that, but any number of unused characters that could use development in the present, be they Etrigan, Firestorm, Bwana Beast, or really anyone else, rather than go to an all new universe when there are unused characters in the main one.
Now, the following is something I've been toying with for a while that is simply a classification system for the multiverse. It is a rough draft and by no means a mandate of any kind, just a suggestion. If people don't like it at all, feel free to say so. If you have suggestions for improvements, those are welcome too.
Again, this is just a proposed classification system, and obviously there are other rules to be worked out here.
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Post by adrini on Jul 24, 2014 6:46:21 GMT -5
See, now I'm really tempted to put my characters through a finding nemo lense so I can see them all as fish of some sort. Ollie wouldn't be a shrimp, though. More of a sword fish.
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Post by Drake on Jul 24, 2014 14:55:07 GMT -5
I disagree with you, Dob, but I do see your point. At this point I'll just roll with whatever.
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Post by jordan on Jul 26, 2014 1:57:27 GMT -5
Why do we have to make rules? Why? What the hell does making rules about time travel solve?
Do you think that Otto Binder cared what the future of the DCU looked like when he wrote Legion? No. He just wrote a good story and other good writers took that story and fit it into the universe afterwards. Good writers find a way to take other people's ideas and make them their own. Look at C_Miller for example. He didn't like what I did with Batman, he wanted to do his own thing, but instead of whipping out what I'd written, he stepped up to the plate, took on the challenge, and fielded one of the most creative things to appear on this site post-MRP.
Look back, I don't know, two years ago? But look back at the original Jonah Hex and the Original Supergirl by Buck & Liquidsword respectively (I believe). Buck didn't give a shit, but he still wrote an alternate future because it's a story that he wanted to write. Liquid came on and had an idea he wanted to write and he fit it together with Jonah Hex. And no one had an issue with Jonah Hex. No one encountered obstacles in the modern day because the Earth was a wasteland in the future. Not one damn writer. So what's so different now? The writers are different, but the basis of the board isn't "Let's build a world using our favorite characters just like our favorite writers did."
And that's what allowing writers the freedom to write their stories with their characters is all about. It's about writing great stories first, and building a universe with them second. That's how this board started, that's how this board restarted. You guys are trying to fit square blocks into poorly cut triangle holes in a lopsided table. Do you get me? Not everyone who writes for this site wants to follow along with what's already been written. A lot of people, myself included, abide by a strong sense of "continuity through omission." If a story set in Metropolis never references Superman, then there is no way that the Superman writer can get angry about what said story is doing in Metropolis. So if a story set in the future doesn't say that Superman died in battle against Lex Luthor on August 14th, 2015, then can the Superman writer be angry with him?
And what is the future writer does, indeed, say that Superman died on August 14th, 2015 in a battle with Lex Luthor? Does that ruin anyone's story? Isn't it the Superman writer's obligation to use that piece of information to strengthen his story and, if he cannot use that piece of information to strengthen his story, then ignore that information altogether?
A few example fixes for that scenario:
1) Kill Superman on August 14th, 2015. 2) Ignore it altogether. 3) CROSSOVER! Have the future characters come back in time and stop it from happening. 4) Be EVEN more creative than those three things, and come up with a way around it. Actual comic writers do. Comic fans find ways to rationalize the way that things happen. At least, truly happy fans do. Unhappy ones who have a tight sense of continuity and have to have everything fit together even if it doesn't, usually are the ones most upset about comics. But I digress.
I guess what I'm saying here is that, Time Travel, Multiverses, or whatever, give the writers the freedom to write their stories. Some things will contradict other things, most things won't. Use what contradicts other things and either fix the contradiction or make your story stronger by using it. We should all be able to write the stories we want to write. This is our universe to shape, therefore we should be able to shape it through our imaginations, not solely confined to the imaginations of the core writers. We can all build our own universes, and then connect the dots as time goes on. That's how you build a universe. That's how DC did it. That's how Marvel did it. They got creative and made things up as they went along because that's what truly great writers do. They fix problems, they don't make problems just go away and come again another day.
I hope someone else out there agrees with me, because this is truly what the board I want to write for is. A board where I have the freedom to write whatever it is I want as long as it doesn't blatantly destroy the work of another.
Thank you all,
This has been a word from Jordan.
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Post by Question on Jul 26, 2014 9:35:03 GMT -5
I feel like having an established multiverse fixes every problem one might have with time travel.
But I'm also not actually planning a time travel or future story, so I'm also not all that worried about it either way.
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Post by adrini on Jul 26, 2014 10:50:35 GMT -5
Jordan is advocating for comic chaos. The same thing that makes the retcons we all *love* so very very much.
Let me explain it.
Bad, lazy writers who can't be bothered to care about anyone other then themselves write crappy, poorly thought out stories (often time travel or alt universe)that generally screw as many other people over as possible. Then they proceed to pat themselves on the back like they accomplished something. Once a blue moon one is actually good, but it's the exception, not the rule.
These other people, correctly realizing that this isn't a good idea and will cause damage in the universe they are trying to write mindfully, scramble to make whatever the prior person wrote work to the best their ability with varying levels of success, and almost always utilizing some degree of truly remarkable bullshit out of sheer necessity.
The person who started everything looks at the resultant patch and pats himself on the back again, congratulating himself on adding something "great" to the universe. Never fully understanding that his co-working are stating to have homicidal fantasies due to having to continually clean up his mess when he pulls something like this.
The fans, reading this, become acclimated to poorly written crap (because if the writers TRY to write anything well thought out there's a 75% it'll get interrupted anyway, hence why so many seem to just give up), even more poorly written patches (best they can do, not a lot to work with all the time) and universes so badly connected and built after a time that even the fans begin calling for a retcon to start cleaning some of the worst of it up at least.
And this is the comic book industry at present. Broken, dysfunctional, nearly brainless, full of half written good stories that never seem to get finished, and full of more cheap tricks and ass shot gimmicks then daytime television. Our newest instance is a Wonder Woman who looks no older then 14 and had to be assured to be feminist by the writer as the artist went on record that he didn't feel it was "needed".
If wanting something better means I'm playing with triangle blocks, so be it. The old square ones have enough issues I'm willing try pretty much anything else at this point. It can't help but be an improvement.
Now, lets try to do better and have, at least, common sense rules. They won't kill anyone.
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Post by Question on Jul 26, 2014 11:11:30 GMT -5
"Don't do anything that affects a title other than your own or characters you haven't claimed."
Simple, to the point, and applies just as much to Chronos going back in time to murder baby Hal Jordan in his crib as it does to nuking Gotham.
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Post by Drake on Jul 26, 2014 11:36:44 GMT -5
I actually agree with jordan 100%, and frankly, adrini, I don't agree with you at all. Have there been crappy time travel/AU stories? Yes, but there are crappy present day, "normal" stories too. Frankly, in general, I enjoy time travel and AU stories and I think they tend to make world building much smoother than if the future or past is ignored. Now, I do agree that half finished pointless time travel stories, and crap-job alternate earths is not the way to go, but by limiting the options for writers then you're limiting writers' creativity.
I don't know. Maybe it's because I'm young, and not yet disillusioned with the industry yet, but I don't think comics suck nowadays. I honestly think comic readers need to be more open to change, and that the reason most readers bitch about stuff is because it isn't what they read when they were my age. Falcap and Fem-Thor, for example, or Superior Spider-Man, Arrow, the Johnsian Flash origin, Superman in MoS (not much of a fan myself, honestly, but I'm open to it), any new actor to play Batman, etc. People complain because "comics aren't what they used to be." They think they mean "they aren't good anymore," but really it's "they're not what I grew up with." Anyway, this is a bit off topic, but my point still stands....
When are stories usually the most critically hammed? When there's a lot of editorial interference. And the opposite? When creators have the freedom to write what they want. I'm all for the admins helping out and I think Question's proposed rule makes perfect sense, BUT I don't think there should be a lot of restrictions on ANY aspects of writing (beyond, y'know, writing characters you haven't claimed, etc.)
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Post by adrini on Jul 26, 2014 12:15:42 GMT -5
The issue is they don't learn. Arrow is a great place to start.
Oliver was always a playboy. Comes with the character. But in the 70's (general theory is to play off the popularity of James Bond) he went super manwhore. His tangled and messed up relationship not only seriously screwed up his key relationship (who got fed up and went to join the first birds) but ate up his series until the bulk of it was spent tangling and untangling the messes. Result? Sales got so bad the title was canceled and Green Arrow himself was killed off.
Fast forward to the present day and CW decides that was a GREAT IDEA! Meaning we have an ollie who has slept with five women (other then one night stands) so far, cheated on Di so often I'm surprised she even cares any more, and really is a piece of beef cake at this point. Any woman who gets involved with him deserves what she gets. I have no sympathy. They're better off going to Seattle.
Result? The new fans think it's great. The older ones, who know what we're being cheat of (mind you, we like that they got rid of the crap, just not the good stuff)are waiting for them to stop being dumbasses. I just saw the opening trailor for season 3 and it's looks like I'm skipping at least the beginning of another season. I've seen this before. It does not end well.
The reality is if the fan fans leave, IE the ones that showed up wanting to see Green arrow and the REAL black canary the show is finished. The other fan base will run off to watch...dancing with the stars, or whatever that group likes. Just not as stable a market. I'm praying for them to get better but if the new video from Comiccon is any indication it looking more and more like history repeating itself. They never learn.
I've lived though....many retcons. Can't rightly rememeber to be honest, but what kills me is they NEVER LEARN. The same cheap tricks, the same "look, we've broken up x and y", the same lets try the current gimmick. In the 70's it was Bond, James Bond. Currently it's messed up relationships and making everything "dark". and if it's been done before we can't do it now, for some reason. So much for truly loved and time tested pairings.
What drives me nuts is the promise of it. There is alot we need to toss out. So much. It's more then called for. And this is a time we can. What do we do instead? Meh, lets jump on the cheating, cheap rip off character, everything has to be dark bandwagon. It'll be awesome.
Except it won't be. And I know this because they've already done this before.
I used to wonder why I left comics for a few years. I remember now.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Jul 26, 2014 12:38:22 GMT -5
Comparing us to the actual Marvel and DC comics is problematic because, as evidenced by the last few posts, their success is debatable. There are people on this site who love the new Marvel twists and DC New 52. There are others, including myself, who came to this site to write a DC title because the New 52 and Marvel's current storylines have been extremely disappointing, sometimes to the point of being offensive, and we believe that we can do better. Whether or not you like or dislike current Marvel or DC comics is irrelevant to this thread though.
Saying "I like/dislike stories with X" or "X stories are good/bad" where X equals time travel, the multiverse, etcetera is off-topic and missing the point. The argument over whether or not the current comics-climate is a good one or not is also off-topic for this thread. Somewhat relevant, but still missing the point.
The point being that this is a shared universe between all the writers on this site. We have people who see nothing wrong with time travel and multiverse storylines with no restrictions whatsoever, and we have people who are very afraid of the potential clusterf*** and plot holes giving free reign to time travel/multiverse would bring.
Just a few related things in past titles that have caused problems: - A Hawkman title which said that all humans were descended from Thanagarians. - A title which said that all of Earth was mind-controlled in the Twentieth Century to forget an alien invasion. - An alternate future that said that Earth banned all superheroes.
Now none of these titles are currently in continuity for one reason or another. You can argue that your personal title isn't affected by one or all of the above changes, but you can't make that claim for everyone. To those who say we should wait until time travel/multiverse abuse becomes a problem, it's been a problem for a while.
Honestly, if this were completely up to me, I would just ban time travel/multiverse altogether and say pick a different plotline and save everyone some headaches. Obviously this isn't and won't be the case. Just as writers should have the freedom to explore some of these comic book tropes, so should other writers have protections from plot holes, spoilers (intentional or otherwise), or sweeping generalizations that impact their stories.
Jordan: Continuity through omission is an excellent tool to work around some potential plot holes, but not only is it not feasible in every situation, but other writers shouldn't have to backpedal their own works because one guy decides to have a "shocking twist" involving time travel. With just a little bit of preparation work and collaboration we can stop most potential problems before they start.
Question: That's a good foundation, but there are many cases where writers would either find the vagueness too restricting or too lenient. Technically anything a writer does affects all the other titles as long as we're writing in the same shared universe.
Some basic rule ideas based on what's been said so far. Nothing is set in stone. As always, feel free to object, suggest amendments, point out problems, that sort of thing.
- Don't do anything that forces any plot elements on a title other than your own or characters you haven't claimed.
(to paraphrase Question)
- Any major historical changes you have planned need to be at least be run by admins first, if not the rest of the writers here.
(Ideally if something was major enough that it would impact other writers, we the admins would bring this up to the other writers and make sure there are no conflicts.)
- All future settings count as alternate universes and are subject to appropriate rules.
(Granted we need to settle on how alternate worlds will be handled, but this at least means once we figure that out the future time-travel thing will be settled.)
- Every character claim also automatically gives you every version of that character in all universes. Anyone who wants to use a character who is a parallel version of someone already claimed has to ask permission, and the current claim owner retains the right to veto ideas regarding those claims they don't like.
- No titles can be set completely in parallel universes or alternate dimensions without at least some connection to the present/main continuity.
(Yes this limits a potential Legion title, but Star is right in that a completely isolated setting is pointless. It doesn't have to be the Legion coming to the present, it could be someone coming from the present to run around with the Legion, or any other solution the writer can come up with. There's also the simple fact that we currently don't have anyone pitching a Legion title so right now it's a moot point.)
I'm not putting this as one of the proposed rules above since no one seemed to second this yet, but I do think there needs to be some kind of pitch/claims/approval process when creating these alternate worlds (not exactly sure what right now.) Maybe a thread proposing the alternate world so other writers can either point out any major concerns they have with the world or decide what the parallel versions of their characters are doing there.
This is a shared site. Just because some writers don't see the need for any rules regarding time travel/multiverse doesn't mean we can alienate the other writers who have huge concerns, and just because we have some writers who want some regulations doesn't mean we can just straight up ban things like time travel. So we need to find some rules that we can all agree on.
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Post by Question on Jul 26, 2014 12:52:10 GMT -5
Question: That's a good foundation, but there are many cases where writers would either find the vagueness too restricting or too lenient. Technically anything a writer does affects all the other titles as long as we're writing in the same shared universe. Technically? Sure. But realistically, if I wrote a Booster Gold story where he battles Solaris the Tyrant Sun at the edge of the solar system, it probably wouldn't affect anything that, for instance, adrini would be writing in Green Arrow. Honestly, for me, the number zero rule would be to not try getting around the rules by being a pedantic douche (not that I'm accusing anyone of currently being so, mind you). There are probably going to be writers with ideas that follow the letter of the rules but not the spirit. You can't plan for all of them. Hence the vague and simple rules idea; if you think something you're doing might break the spirit of the rules, either ask someone or just don't do it. I mostly lurk here and don't really know anyone well enough to actually make the following judgment call, but I haven't noticed anyone that's such a colossal douche that I feel like they'd try to game the rules just because the they don't specifically ban something. And if a new member does try to get around the system? Then tell them to quit it.
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Post by Drake on Jul 26, 2014 13:12:06 GMT -5
I think there's some confusion here, Dob, that I'm just realizing exists. I agree with about 90% of what you said and I'm in COMPLETE agreement with the rules you mentioned. I vote "yes" on all of those.
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Post by jordan on Jul 27, 2014 1:46:06 GMT -5
I'm choosing to reply only to the topics that are on-subject, because, as Dob pointed out, a few things here and there have pulled off subject.
In direct response to you, Dob, you said that it isn't fair for one person to have to backpedal their work because of the work of another? Because of a plot twist? Every writer has the same rights, correct? Which means that a writer writing a future title has the same write to tell his story as you, Adrini, C_Miller and everyone else writing a normal, in the present, title. Just because someone says something in the future that may affect someone in the past doesn't make it any different then someone in the present say bomb part of Gotham City and not tell the Batman writer pre-bombing. Things will happen that set back some writers, and every story is the same. Just because it is set in the future doesn't mean that any writer should have to care more about everyone else's story than their own.
Which brings me to responding to an earlier point. Someone brought up that the future is it's "own world" and has nothing to do with our "main" universe. But, as others have pointed out, our "main" universe is whatever we want it to be. If we want to make Green Arrow a Red Lantern and have him take over Oa and tell the Green Arrow story from there, then we can. That's within our rights to do. Therefore, it is only believable that, if we can incorporate the outer reaches of the universe into our "main" universe, then why can we not incorporate the future?
Which brings me to your proposed rules, Dob. I agree with the majority of a lot of the rules. I really do. They could be fixed up, made a bit vaguer, but overall I don't think that they hurt creativity too much. The one I have an issue with is that every title must be centered on our main reality. Where that is very, very easy to work around, how is that admin forced rule affecting the story any less than Per Degaton going back in time and killing the Waynes? It forces the author of a possible Legion story to make changes to their story that makes it not the story that they set out to do. I see this mostly as not a problem as far as creativity, but more of a problem of choosing favorites. Not as in favorite writers, but as in favorite ideas. You are favoring Present Day titles over possible future titles, time-travel titles and others, which, instead of allowing the board a more natural and creative approach to writing their favorite characters however they want and building a universe that way, it makes the board in the idea of those who want to write what you and, by proxy, the entireity of the admin staff, are saying that we must create. This board's original universe, the one that ended in the first reboot, was the only REAL connected universe that either UDCU or All Star Marvel really ever got off the ground. And they got it off the ground by allowing writer's the freedom to write the stories they wanted to and not following a path that the administration set up. You cannot favor a single period in time as the "main" time, a single universe as the "main" universe, and a single core of titles as the "main" titles, because that isn't how you worldbuild, you worldbuild by connecting the dots of everyone and allowing people to go off and do their own thing, be in their own world, until the day comes that they so choose to cross over and partake in the overall world.
So again, I'm for writer freedom. Jordan.
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