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Post by liquidsword34 on Feb 13, 2013 5:30:28 GMT -5
For what it's worth, if your story is set within Greek mythology that stuff will already be there in some forms anyway (Herra and Zeus being brother and sister, for example).
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Post by C_Miller on Feb 13, 2013 6:31:35 GMT -5
Another good point by Liquidsword.
Either way, regardless of what you decide to do, I don't think it will be tasteless, if that's what you're worried about.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Feb 13, 2013 13:29:52 GMT -5
So halfway through the first issue and this demanded a response especially since given our Gamefaqs origins, Stardrifter brings great shame onto the 223. Jason Biggs. Andy Wedge. I picked up on this for four reasons. The first: Jason Biggs is an actor and how he goes from working on the epically awesome new Turtles to this is amazing. The second: I'm a huge Star Wars fan. The Third: I'm also a huge Final Fantasy fan. And the fourth and final: I do it too. In a collaborative story I do with a group of other writers, whenever we need names for guards, we call them Biggs and Wedge. Two of them have somehow been the most inept guards in two centuries and still live. They're like the gods of guards. Or rather the personification of guards. Now back to reading. Yeah, Wedge and Biggs comes from the traditional vanilla guards in Final Fantasy. I knew the name Jason Biggs sounded familiar, but really I just went with the first name that came to mind. I imagine that Wedge and Biggs probably both have extensive families that coincidentally happen to work together in various jobs and roles, usually as guards. Very good points on both sides for a Diana/Troia ship. I'm still on the fence, but I can say that either way it won't be a huge plot point, and I definitely don't plan on going into intimate details. I will get to other responses later.
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Post by The Wonderful Wachter on Feb 13, 2013 13:44:01 GMT -5
As I said, I like picturing them as the physical embodiment of the "Guard-Force," the personification of what it means to be a guard, or a Worker's Union of Inept Guards who take the same names so that they can't be punished.
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Post by Ultimate Silentking on Feb 19, 2013 1:38:10 GMT -5
Finally read issue 1 and 2. It was a bloody good read (No, I am not British. I just like saying that and yes, I understand that it is the equivalent of the f-word in Britain. Don't care.) with interesting everything. There was at least one spelling mistake, but I only saw during a second read through so nothing too bad. I have to say that the third issue was undeniably the best out of them all. 9/10 overall. Hope to read more soon.
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Post by liquidsword34 on Feb 19, 2013 9:49:50 GMT -5
and yes, I understand that it is the equivalent of the f-word in Britain. It's not really.
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Post by Ultimate Silentking on Feb 19, 2013 11:22:45 GMT -5
Okay, exaggeration there, but I know it is a form of profanity in Britain.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Feb 25, 2013 19:13:52 GMT -5
So... uh, my usual beta reader bailed this month.
Anyone want to get a first look at UWW #4 and proofread for me?
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Feb 28, 2013 1:39:02 GMT -5
Next issue is up!
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Post by liquidsword34 on Mar 2, 2013 20:11:34 GMT -5
Very good issue, even better than the previous ones. My only real issue is the fight scene. It's supposed to be a serious fight where they're giving it their all using lethal weapons. However that sort of falls apart when none of them end up hitting the others with their weapons, if that makes sense. It sort of damages the suspension of disbelief. I'm not saying they should've been killing each other, but I'd have preferred if they maybe used blunted weapons or something.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Mar 2, 2013 21:22:44 GMT -5
Very good issue, even better than the previous ones. My only real issue is the fight scene. It's supposed to be a serious fight where they're giving it their all using lethal weapons. However that sort of falls apart when none of them end up hitting the others with their weapons, if that makes sense. It sort of damages the suspension of disbelief. I'm not saying they should've been killing each other, but I'd have preferred if they maybe used blunted weapons or something. I'll freely admit the fight scenes in this chapter were lackluster. It mostly comes from there being only so many ways to portray an Amazon VS Amazon fight before one starts to get very bored.
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Post by Stardrifter on Mar 5, 2013 0:31:47 GMT -5
Yeah I kinda glanced over the fight scene. Until it got down to the last two, it really felt like it didn't matter. Otherwise, despite some badly needed proofreading, it was a good issue. I liked that you took the time to show that the battle wasn't just swept aside like many comic book fights. There were consequences and dirty work left.
Keep em coming.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2013 22:12:18 GMT -5
Caught up on Issues 3 and 4. As Star mentioned 4 had some serious proofing issues, but I noticed you did not have access to your regular beta reader, so I am going to assume that was a big part of it.
So as I have said before elsewhere, not a huge fan of origin stories and I am much more interested in the story that was taking place in the present than that of how Diana became Wonder Woman. I think overall the series might have been better served moving the current story forward with the back story filled in in smaller chunks of backstory, rather than the flashback with small crumbs (#3) or no crumbs (#4) of the main story.
I also recall some people feeling Diana did not come across as heroic in #1, and I disagreed then, however, in #4 for me anyways, she did not come across as heroic at all. Snotty, selfish, petulant, and conceited yes, heroic not at all. Maybe she will learn and grow as she goes, but she did not come across as someone I wanted to root for in this most recent issue, whereas I was firmly behind her in #1.
It was also odd to see Circe's transformation magic work on women (I know they did a JLU episode where she transformed Wonder Woman as well, so there is precedent) as I am used to the classic mythological take that the her magic did not so much transform the men but revealed their inner beasts, and it was as much a commentary on the nature of men (i.e. males not mankind) as it was a magical spell for narrative sake.
Keep it up, I look forward to seeing where you will go with this.
-M
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Mar 7, 2013 9:24:55 GMT -5
Caught up on Issues 3 and 4. As Star mentioned 4 had some serious proofing issues, but I noticed you did not have access to your regular beta reader, so I am going to assume that was a big part of it. So as I have said before elsewhere, not a huge fan of origin stories and I am much more interested in the story that was taking place in the present than that of how Diana became Wonder Woman. I think overall the series might have been better served moving the current story forward with the back story filled in in smaller chunks of backstory, rather than the flashback with small crumbs (#3) or no crumbs (#4) of the main story. I also recall some people feeling Diana did not come across as heroic in #1, and I disagreed then, however, in #4 for me anyways, she did not come across as heroic at all. Snotty, selfish, petulant, and conceited yes, heroic not at all. Maybe she will learn and grow as she goes, but she did not come across as someone I wanted to root for in this most recent issue, whereas I was firmly behind her in #1. ... Ouch. Definitely not the reaction I was hoping for. What was SUPPOSED to be conveyed was that Diana was basically being ignored, not just by her mother, but by her people, and even by the enemies. She couldn't fight when the other Amazons were getting slaughtered, she couldn't help afterward because all of the specialists were busy, and she couldn't lead because no one would take her seriously to the point where even her own mother scolded her like a child. She even notices her mother lying, and I hope I at least made it clear that lying, culturally speaking, is a huge taboo in Themyscira. Then the one chance she has to at least try and do something, the tournament, and her mother forbids her from even entering. Being blocked at every turn from even contributing while her mentor is held captive who knows where led her to make some brash decisions. Not to mention sending Artemis would have been a horrible idea. She probably would have caused more collateral damage than the three established villains combined in her pursuit and done a terrible job of keeping Themyscira a secret. Diana was at least partially motivated by this. But if I failed to convey these factors in the story, that's my fault, and I'll try to do better in the future. I will say that those decisions will not be without consequences, and she does have a lot to learn in being a hero. Also, the good news is no more origin story! The birthing pains are over! It won't be the last flashback in the series, but it could very well be the last one involving Diana. The other moral of this chapter is "Always get a beta reader." I might need to find a new beta reader though, as my usual one, as great as he is, just got a new job with long hours, so his availability is scarce.
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Post by buck on Mar 7, 2013 13:04:00 GMT -5
I disagree with MRP on this I definitely got that Diana while childish was acting based off her sense of duty.
While I didn't feel the origin with bits and pieces of another story I did enjoy the origin.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2013 21:30:16 GMT -5
Caught up on Issues 3 and 4. As Star mentioned 4 had some serious proofing issues, but I noticed you did not have access to your regular beta reader, so I am going to assume that was a big part of it. So as I have said before elsewhere, not a huge fan of origin stories and I am much more interested in the story that was taking place in the present than that of how Diana became Wonder Woman. I think overall the series might have been better served moving the current story forward with the back story filled in in smaller chunks of backstory, rather than the flashback with small crumbs (#3) or no crumbs (#4) of the main story. I also recall some people feeling Diana did not come across as heroic in #1, and I disagreed then, however, in #4 for me anyways, she did not come across as heroic at all. Snotty, selfish, petulant, and conceited yes, heroic not at all. Maybe she will learn and grow as she goes, but she did not come across as someone I wanted to root for in this most recent issue, whereas I was firmly behind her in #1. ... Ouch. Definitely not the reaction I was hoping for. What was SUPPOSED to be conveyed was that Diana was basically being ignored, not just by her mother, but by her people, and even by the enemies. She couldn't fight when the other Amazons were getting slaughtered, she couldn't help afterward because all of the specialists were busy, and she couldn't lead because no one would take her seriously to the point where even her own mother scolded her like a child. She even notices her mother lying, and I hope I at least made it clear that lying, culturally speaking, is a huge taboo in Themyscira. Then the one chance she has to at least try and do something, the tournament, and her mother forbids her from even entering. Being blocked at every turn from even contributing while her mentor is held captive who knows where led her to make some brash decisions. Not to mention sending Artemis would have been a horrible idea. She probably would have caused more collateral damage than the three established villains combined in her pursuit and done a terrible job of keeping Themyscira a secret. Diana was at least partially motivated by this. But if I failed to convey these factors in the story, that's my fault, and I'll try to do better in the future. I will say that those decisions will not be without consequences, and she does have a lot to learn in being a hero. Also, the good news is no more origin story! The birthing pains are over! It won't be the last flashback in the series, but it could very well be the last one involving Diana. The other moral of this chapter is "Always get a beta reader." I might need to find a new beta reader though, as my usual one, as great as he is, just got a new job with long hours, so his availability is scarce. I just wanted to explain a bit where I am coming from, since I seem to be the only one who didn't like the portrayal of Diana. I get that she is young and that comes across clearly, but for me it is in a childish spoiled brat vein. Here is Themyscria in the middle of its worst crisis, people are dead, others lie dying, their sacred mission has been usurped, their defenses shattered, and Diana is upset no one is paying attention to her. She wants to help, I get that ,but when people are a little too preoccupied to worry about how she is feeling at the moment, instead of finding a way to help where she can and doing what she can to help those in need or being supportive of her mother during the crisis (all things that would require maturity and sense of purpose) she hatches a plot to deceive everyone, steal the armor and the jet, intimidates her "best friend" into going along with her plan forcing her to take on the Amazon's deadliest warrior in combat when she has shown time and again she is not ready to do so, and gets it into her head that she alone is the one who can best handle the situation all the while justifying it by rationalizing her mother lied and bent tradition so she can too. In the classic WW origin, Diana does deceive her elders by entering the contest masked, but works within the tradition to prove herself worthy. You've used that and tweaked it, but for in doing so made Diana come across not as a hero doing what needs to be done, but as a self-absorbed and selfish girl who is only concerned with what it all means to her and her world. She may be doing the right thing, as I agree Artemis in man's world would only exacerbate things, but for me anyways, it seems like she is doing it all for the wrong reasons, and making the ends justify the means. Which is why she seemed less than heroic for me in this origin story. That said, the character as portrayed in issue #1, liked, so maybe there is room for her to grow between the time she left Paradise Island and the opening scenes of #1, but there would have to be a lot of experiences to get her through a learning curve, and if I am reading the timeline you have implied in the issue correctly, #1 opens shortly after the origin arc ends, so I don't know if there is enough "story time" for Diana to grow into what I perceived in #1. Now that all said, others seem to be enjoying your take, and it is well written, just not a take as I see it that jibes well with what I look for in characters to follow. So, it's a matter of my personal preferences in a lot of ways, and the way I see things. I am a biased reader and I freely admit that, but I also try to be honest with my reactions to things I read, which is why I made the comments I did. I intend to keep reading and see what kind of development I see in the character, so I hope you don't take this as anything other than my offering an honest reaction to the story. -M
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Mar 7, 2013 22:06:10 GMT -5
No worries. I've enjoyed your reviews immensely thus far, you have a knack for pointing out the flaws that need to be fixed. Just to address some quick stuff... Diana didn't really "intimidate" Troia. She begged Troia for help, and since in this storyline Troia functions not only as her best friend, but her handmaiden as well, Troia couldn't help but go along with whatever Diana was planning. It's kind of her role in life. The whole idea of the plot was to try and take the original origin story of Diana winning the tournament and legitimately becoming Wonder Woman and subverting it. While she didn't technically lie to anyone or disobey her mother's orders, it's still that gray area where she should be feeling guilty and regretting her actions. It's also a matter of everyone else ignoring her and telling her to sit back while she has a loved one in danger. To answer your question about time, Diana lands at the circus right after she leaves Themyscira. I find it interesting that you find her more mature at the circus, since that's when I had her make the rash decisions (like assuming the magician has to be Circe because there's a tiger transformation act, or getting into a fist fight with Giganta). Between all the recent events, not having slept since the night of the attack, and the fatigue from a trip across the Atlantic, she wasn't really thinking straight. Either way, honest reviews are always appreciated.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2013 22:20:10 GMT -5
For what its worth I attributed her actions in #1 as her trying to do the right thing as she understood it but having little familiarity with man's world. More of an innocent naivete of a hero trying to do the right thing in an unfamiliar role. In that case I thought her actions were flawed but her intent and motivation heroic, kind of the opposite of how I saw her in the origin.
-M
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Mar 31, 2013 22:20:55 GMT -5
New Chapter Up.
A little bit of my own commentary on here.
This chapter is shorter than the last few, but it wasn't due to deadline issues like you might guess. I had to cut an additional scene because I realized I would need it in the next chapter.
This is one of the few chapters without action, and while I get that that by itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, I assure you it won't be a trend. I already have the next chapter outlined and there will definitely be plenty of action.
Proofread my own chapter again. We'll see how that turns out.
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Post by Stardrifter on Apr 2, 2013 12:47:08 GMT -5
Not bad. Not great. I have no problem with a lack of action. I just felt some of the dialogue was off. The interactions between Steve, Diana, and the girls felt off. I did enjoy the eccentric Steve Trevor though. Keep em coming.
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