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Post by Stardrifter on Jan 12, 2013 20:23:47 GMT -5
So I sent this to Wachter like a month ago and he still hasn't done anything with it. He told me at New Years he'd find a way to post it on the Continuity board, but he hasn't logged in since. A lot of people have asked about it, so I decided to post it here so people can read and discuss it. I don't expect this to be the end all, be all or force people to follow it, but I think just about any magic character could fit within these rules without issue. If you guys have any thoughts or suggestions, feel free to discuss it here. Rules of Magic in the UDCUEnergy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted from one form to another. a. In order to cast a spell, a magic user must draw that energy from somewhere. Whether it be from a flame, from the Earth, or even from their own bodies. Taking the energy from their body can be dangerous as a slight mistake can lead to serious injury or even death.
b. The greater the energy needed for the spell, the longer it takes to gather said energy. Your mileage may vary depending on the skill and natural ability of magic user.
c. Some magic users can draw energy from other plane's of existence, dimensions, worlds, or being(i.e. a god or other such benefactor). Their level of success is determined by their skill and the extent of their connection to said benefactor. Forms of MagicAlterationThe basis of all magic. The art of taking energy from one thing and applying it for the desired effect. EnchantmentThe art of gathering magical energy and infusing it into a person or object, giving it power or abilities. The infused power can be finite or a link can be established for the person/object to continue transferring power from the source. Invocation The process of petitioning another more powerful being to cause an action for you. The petitioner doesn't cast any spells directly, but through ritual or prayer beseeches another to do so for them. Witchcraft or divine magic falls under this school. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2013 22:33:08 GMT -5
So I sent this to Wachter like a month ago and he still hasn't done anything with it. He told me at New Years he'd find a way to post it on the Continuity board, but he hasn't logged in since. A lot of people have asked about it, so I decided to post it here so people can read and discuss it. I don't expect this to be the end all, be all or force people to follow it, but I think just about any magic character could fit within these rules without issue. If you guys have any thoughts or suggestions, feel free to discuss it here. Rules of Magic in the UDCUEnergy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted from one form to another. a. In order to cast a spell, a magic user must draw that energy from somewhere. Whether it be from a flame, from the Earth, or even from their own bodies. Taking the energy from their body can be dangerous as a slight mistake can lead to serious injury or even death. Creation ex nihilo or or from nothing is often a standard trope of magic though. I can do without it, but it is part and parcel of a lot of magical systems, in the DCU in particular the backwards magic of the Zatara family, in which as long as it can be phrased and spoken, it can happen, and we often see both Zatanna and Zatara creating ex nihilo through magic using that type of spellcasting. I get trying to limit some of the deus ex machina magic use can introduce into a story, but if you limit magic too much and make it a science, it's, well it's not magic anymore. b. The greater the energy needed for the spell, the longer it takes to gather said energy. Your mileage may vary depending on the skill and natural ability of magic user. c. Some magic users can draw energy from other plane's of existence, dimensions, worlds, or being(i.e. a god or other such benefactor). Their level of success is determined by their skill and the extent of their connection to said benefactor. [/blockquote][/quote] Is there any way for magic users to use tools to either store the energy for future use or to speed the process of channeling energy up. Things like wands, rods, staves, rings, amulets, talismans, etc. are often tools used in spellcasting, and this system (which seems highly reminiscent of Jim Butcher's magical system in the Dresden Files) lends itself well to including such tools to make mages more effective-the helm of Nabu or the amulet Dr. Fate wears could be such an item, the amulet of the Seven that Dr. Occult wears, the amulaet the classic look Phantom Stranger wears (not the 30 silver coin necklace new52 Stranger wears), etc. these are all possible examples of such implements. Forms of MagicAlterationThe basis of all magic. The art of taking energy from one thing and applying it for the desired effect. EnchantmentThe art of gathering magical energy and infusing it into a person or object, giving it power or abilities. The infused power can be finite or a link can be established for the person/object to continue transferring power from the source. Ok this one confuses the hell out of me. Enchantment traditionally refers to powers that affect the mind-charms, love spells, persuasions, geas, etc. The definition you give sound more like a traditional binding magic achieved through sympathetic magic where something of an individual or an object is used in the casting to link the two to create the magical bonds that allows magic to affect it from afar. Such objects are usually called fetishes in anthropological terms, but the most common pop culture example is the voodoo doll (which is just one type of fetish). This type of magic is the most common in the belief systems of real world cultures that believe in magic. Sir James Frazier's The Golden Bough is a pretty standard text examining this type of magical system in real world cultures, but in essence you use a lock of hair, a fingernail, a drop of blood, an object dear to a person,etc, to create a bond and use the bond to transfer magical energy (either for good or ill) to the other. Enchantment is usually used for magics that affect the mind or emotions rather than physical objects. In the Odyssey, Circe is an enchantress, in Le Morte d'Artur Morgaine le Fey is an enchantress, because they affect men's minds (though Circe is also considered a sorceress because she affects transmutations, a type of magic you left off the list) Invocation The process of petitioning another more powerful being to cause an action for you. The petitioner doesn't cast any spells directly, but through ritual or prayer beseeches another to do so for them. Witchcraft or divine magic falls under this school. Ok so there are a lot of types of magics you did not include: Glamers and Illusions-most common forms of Faerie magic, but making things seem to be different than they are, this is a subset of traditional enchantments (though not of enchantment as you define it). Transmutations-actually changing the form of one thing into another-either someone else-Circe changing men into animals for example, or actual shapechanging (as opposed to illusions) such as Uther taking the form of Ygraine's husband to lie with her in the movie Excalibir (Since you chose to use a pic of Merlin from that film in your secret file it is fair game to use as examples  Necromacy-magic dealing with the dead and the undead. Divinations-predicting the future or having visions of other places and/or times, reading the history of an object or person by touching it, etc. Madame Xanadu is all about this and tools for divination include Tarot cards, tea leaves, runestones, the entrails of recently killed animals (or people). Sympathetic magic (as I mentioned earlier) like affecting like, as above so below a central tenet of magical universes I think the rules you have set show a lot of thought on the matter, but in some senses I think they are too limiting by defining too much, and in others I do not think they are expansive enough leaving out a lot of standard tropes of magic. I am have quibbles with how you define enchantment, both because the definition given is unclear and because it does not fit what enchantment usually means. However I am glad these got posted so we can have a dialogue about them and they are a solid foundation to start that discussion with. -M |
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Jan 13, 2013 0:26:49 GMT -5
Seeing as how I have a large portion of said gods, I should probably get involved in this discussion. Also since Circe is showing up next issue.
Magic is by its own nature very difficult to define, but I think one important thing to keep in mind is that multiple cultures would have different ideals and philosophies regarding magic. The "rules of magic" of someone who studied around Merlin in Arthurian times would be very different from a sorceress of Ancient Greek myth, for example.
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Post by liquidsword34 on Jan 13, 2013 6:27:08 GMT -5
Creation ex nihilo or or from nothing is often a standard trope of magic though. I can do without it, but it is part and parcel of a lot of magical systems, in the DCU in particular the backwards magic of the Zatara family, in which as long as it can be phrased and spoken, it can happen, and we often see both Zatanna and Zatara creating ex nihilo through magic using that type of spellcasting. My assumption would be that their speaking creates the energy and draws it from a source in some way. |
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Post by Stardrifter on Jan 13, 2013 16:26:02 GMT -5
That really just depends on your view of magic. I don't particularly care for the Zatanna style magic. Why doesn't she just say, "Esol uoy!" to anyone she fights? The point adhering it to the "Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted from one form to another" idea is that it puts limits on things and keeps anyone from just being too big, while at the same time allowing a writer to still do what they want by saying they're getting their power from "Deus Ex Machina land" so don't worry about it.
No reason why not. It fits into Enchantment. Speaking of...
The term Enchantment is also used in tons of games and books to refer to casting a spell on an item to give it magical properties, which is where I was coming from.
As I said, this isn't meant to force anyone to adhere to it. And it's a brief list because it leaves a lot of leeway for people to play around in. All the other schools of magic you suggested are simply subsets of the basic Forms I suggested.
The Rules I created are the very basics which, as far as I see, allow for every kind of magic in the DCU work within. The only thing it might limit, the power from nothing magic, isn't truly limited since the writer can just claim they're getting their power from somewhere else. But keeping it in that system allows for the writer to limit things when necessary, i.e. the ol' "Out of web fluid" trope, without it being out of nowhere.
That's not how I view it. It's more like math, no matter what culture you come from, time period, or language, 1+1=2.
But again, these aren't board wide rules. It's just the way I'm going with it and felt it was expansive enough for everyone. But they aren't hard and fast rules.
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Post by Drake on Jan 13, 2013 16:32:42 GMT -5
So...I know I haven't gotten there yet, but when I do, will Billy have to draw energy from somewhere to transform? By these rules, which I like btw, would he have to draw energy from the sky or something to bring down the lightning bolt that transforms him? I assume the answer is no but...
And on another similar subject, would the magic and power The Wizard gifts onto Billy be his source of energy for a majority of his spells? It is the "power of the gods," after all. And for those of you wondering, yes, Billy will be learning magic. Eventually.
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Post by Stardrifter on Jan 13, 2013 16:50:50 GMT -5
So...I know I haven't gotten there yet, but when I do, will Billy have to draw energy from somewhere to transform? By these rules, which I like btw, would he have to draw energy from the sky or something to bring down the lightning bolt that transforms him? I assume the answer is no but... And on another similar subject, would the magic and power The Wizard gifts onto Billy be his source of energy for a majority of his spells? It is the "power of the gods," after all. And for those of you wondering, yes, Billy will be learning magic. Eventually. I don't know how exactly you want to do things, but going from the typical comic version of Captain Marvel, you could view it as Billy has a connection to Shazam, which is where he draws his power from when he calls his name and transforms. Shazam would be doing what I listed under Enchanment, infusing Billy with power and continuing that transfer over their connection. Or alternatively, Shazam created a magical connection between Billy and the Gods, so that when he transforms he gets his powers directly from them. |
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Post by Drake on Jan 13, 2013 17:14:50 GMT -5
It's...different than that. Shazam is just a title, by the way, not a name. In my story, I mean. And the gods...well, this is spoilers...aren't gods. I'm purposely staying away from deities and all that as that is Disciple's stuff to use. I won't say what they are, the six, um..."people" of SHAZAM, but they aren't deities. And they're dead. So, I'm thinking of maybe using "the living lightning" as a term for their leftover souls/magic/power, whatever, and having Billy connected to that.
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jay
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Post by jay on Jan 13, 2013 22:04:41 GMT -5
Okay. I'd like a clarification for Cobalt Blue just to make sure I am understanding this correctly so I can fit this into the rules.
If his powers come from hate. It's emotion as the basis and he converts it into what he uses it for. He does use a talisman that helps store his hatred for him to use it. The only use you guys have seen is that of making a circle of blue flame appear around the robbery and healing someone. There is a connection to a other being where the power comes from as well, but this will be revealed as the series progresses. So with that being said is there anything I should change for his use of magic?
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