Who's Watching the Ultimate Watchmen Discussion?

[elite147]

Issue #1 is up and I hope everyone enjoys. It's a lot different than my Superman, and I hope everyone likes this one a lot better.

-Elite

[Deleted]

So I hate being the first to comment sometimes. To be fair, Watchmen is a tough sell for me (your proposed Invisibles series would have been as well) as there are just some characters who I feel should not be touched by anyone except the original creator's hands. It's the reason why I am not buying any of the Before Watchmen stuff and am not reading it even though I was offered a chance to read them gratis.

Watchmen was one of those seminal series that changed the way I viewed comics in 1986 when it debuted. I was originally going to pass on the series, but then executive VP and EIC of DC Dick Giordano was doing a store appearance at my local shop the day it was released and while talking to him, he told me I would regret not getting it, and offered me a money back guarantee-he signed my copy and told the owner if I read it and didn't like it I could bring it back and pick out another comic and he would pay for it for me. Needless to say I never returned my copy and that signed copy is one of the books I have held on to even when I was purging large chunks of my collection. So Watchmen holds a special place and in many ways I don't think it works in anyone's hands except Gibbons and Moore. I did however enjoy the film despite many's dislike of it, so there are exceptions to my feelings.

With all that said, I read #1 with some reluctance. There is a lot there-a lot of pieces that are good, but I am not sure how they all fit together yet. I want to keep reading to see what happens, which is good, but I do have some issues. Serial killers are a tough sell for me and we already have one series doing a serial killer story extremely well.Serial killers are frightening in the real world, but it a world of super-powers and super detectives, they become less so. The sense of threat is lessened by that. So I hope the serial killer is going to lead to something more.

In a sense of how it fits into the overall UDCU, a prominent super-team other than the JSA operating in the past seems to be a tough fit for what has already been established. Part of the appeal of the original Watchmen series was that it was a world unto itself and a take of what the real world would be like if super-heroes were in it. Putting those characters in the same world as the JSA, Supes, Batman etc. takes away from what makes it special in my view, so it means your job as writer is going to be that much harder to make them work in this world. I am guessing you have talked part of this over with C_Miller since Sandy had a cameo in #1, but it was that scene that caused the greatest concern for me on this issue.

Some of your takes on the Watchmen characters were interesting and some just didn't work for me. Rorschach didn't work for me, and not just because I kept waiting for a trademark "Hrrrm" from him and didn't get it. Rorschach in Moore's take was an homage to Ditko's original Question and his absolute materialism philosophical core as elucidated by Ayn Rand. He seems bat-shit crazy at times, but it is that philosophical world view taken to an extreme. While his methodology is often extremely violent and pulls no punches, his motivations and rationale for his actions are subtly presented making him an extremely layered character full of subtext. Your Rorschach came across as more over the top extremes for sensationalist purposes rather than for philosophical underpinnings of the character.

Ozymandias started out very good, until the last scene, where he fell apart for me. His donning the costume scene made him seem more a copy of the Batman with the whole utility belt motif than the epitome of human perfection Veidt was imagined to be as a reflection of Peter Cannon Thunderbolt.

Now, that is not to say your interpretations are not valid reimaginings of these characters, they are, and that is what the site is about. They just don't work for me as a reader, but others may enjoy them very much. It's not that they are not well-written, they are, there just not written in a manner that connects with me.

Taking on the Watchmen is a Herculean task, and you produced a solid issue. It had some proofreading issues here and there, but overall was well-written. I just didn't connect with it.
I will continue reading and see what you have planned and where you go, and I hold out the hope later issues will work for me better, so keep them coming.

-M

[elite147]

Thank you for the review. And, out of all of your concerns, I think the only one I really can explain is Veidt. Utility belts are used by many non powered heroes, it's sort of a trademark. I do hope you enjoy it more as time goes on, especially the Rorschach character, because he is my favorite interpretation. And the serial killer, just wait. I can't guarantee you like the twist of the killer, but it's a good twist in my opinion, and I'll build the characters more as time goes on. That's one of the best parts of having it as an ongoing, I have time to create these characters into something I hope all can connect with.

-Elite

[liquidsword34]

As said, taking on Watchmen is difficult. You write Batman, there's so many stories it can be compared against, with so many interpretations of each character. You write Watchmen, and the readers are going to compare it to Watchmen, so it's obviously going to be hard to make your characters work, if that makes sense. I like it so far, definitely a solid issue, and as with MRP many of my problems with it are simply that it didn't connect with me.

[jay]

My only major issue is how each of these characters fit into their own setting. I liked the bladed hat bit. The flashing scene did make me chuckle but the combat prowess of that is bizarre do to dangly parts being a target. I did like some of your choices. If this guy is wanted by the FBI or whatever organization HOW is he staying one step ahead of them. That needs to be shown and not just told to the reader. You say the guy is wanted, but we don't see how that would interfere with things. Maybe developing him a bit more might be a good idea for the next couple of chapters. Blake is not a downright bastard like you would expect he's just the team's token asshole. Ozy is suppose to be the world's smartest man but he really doesn't seem to come off like that right now. If you are going for something else and I missed it I'm sorry. Jon being a hero with no powers was interesting and him being the team tech guy from STAR Labs was a good stab at trying to keep things set in the universe. My big question is why does Sally have a gun always loaded if she is a reporter? The baby kinda falling into her lap seems just like a Dues Ex Machina to get the team all on the same case at the moment. However this being your first issue I am sure it will not turn out to be that way.

I did like that you seem to have each of The Minutemen having different jobs. Brings a wide array of skills to the team of Mysterymen. Which to be fair that's what this is. It's a team of non powers for the most part. The JSA have some superpowers and what not. This makes this team seem a little more interesting. Maybe have the original Minutemen be the backup members of the All Star Squadron which was the banner for all JSA people and singles who were teamed together for a while on Earth 2. Again take it up with the JSA writer but it might fix the problem that was spoken about earlier.

I liked how you established Dan. He's a hero and he also is coming out of a closet. Dan has always been a character who was closeted in the comic and you took that one step further by making him actually gay, at least that's my interpretation from how I read it. Also there seems to be some stuff going on that I am not going to say anything about because I'm picking up on a few things that may or may not be going on and I don't wanna spoil something in this review of your work that might be a plotpoint. Do keep it up though. I think if you spend time developing the characters more than the mystery at this point you'll get more out of the series. Watchmen's spirit is the characters. Focus on that and it might work out a bit more to how you are wanting it to go. Keep it up.

[elite147]

jay: Laurie had the gun, not Sally, sorry if I confused you. And she has it because she's the silk specter, a crime fighter, it's how she fights crime, which we haven't seen much of yet, but it will come. Also, the baby, that's a long term payoff deal, so keep on reading!

-Elite

[elite147]

We have Issue #2, up and running. And pay special attention to some of the smaller parts, because no matter how irrelevant they may seem, they're all coming back for something big. Enjoy Book 1 Chapter 2 Shattered Windows.

-Elite

[Deleted]

Okay again first to comment which I am reluctant to do. It's obvious you are are excited about this series-you got issue #2 up only a week or so after #1. Unfortunately it could have used some more time in the editing process. Lots of typos, missing words, pronoun confusion, and general vagueness and unclear passages that made it hard to get through and figure out who was doing or saying what, and in general get a clear picture of what is happening. If you are going to write a complex story with lots of twists and turns and way out there concepts, it becomes incumbent on the writer to present it in as clear and readable manner as possible so that the reader can focus on the story and not the language problems.

Many people think its all about the ideas, but it's not. It's about the execution of the idea. Go to any convention, comic shop, game store, etc. and there are people there who have big ideas; they are a dime a dozen and so worthless that people are willing to give them away for free...how many times have you heard the if I were writing...or if I were making that movie...I would...conversation. Stroytelling is not about ideas, it's about presenting those ideas to an audience in a way that captures their attention, holds it and gives them an experience that leaves them feeling entertained, satisfied, and yet wanting for more.

This requires an attention to detail on the part of the storyteller. Not just in things like typos and grammar, but in things like dialogue-do people actually talk like that? In character development-do people really act like that? Do my characters resonate with the audience-can they like them? Can they root for them? Can they hate them? Can they root against with them? Can they identify with them? Can they recognize something of themselves in the characters?

Flow of the story-it doesn't have to be linear, but events have to flow form one to the other whenever they are presented. Momento and the Usual Suspects are great examples of stories not told in a linear order but whose events flow together to form a cohesive whole. Even though you don't know exactly what is happening, you get the sense from the storyteller it is all going to come together at some point. There are twists aplenty, but not many wtf is this moments where something seems to come out of nowhere and not fit what else is going on.

For some specifics-I still can't get a handle on your characters. None of them are very likable-and that may be intentional on your part, but I can't yet get a handle on why they are the way they are. Their actions seem random and their motivations unfathomable. It makes it hard to invest in them. I don't have to like them, but I do need to be inclined to invest my time and attention to them, so they have to resonate with me the reader somehow. They haven't so far, and that is my biggest issue. I can deal with almost anything in a story if the characters resonate enough for me to invest in them, and I just haven't been able to with any of the characters yet, and because of that, every little other thing in the story stands out.

The first paragraph was a bit of a mess, but the scenes of Jon approaching the house had promise, but for me things started to fall apart about the time the Comedian arrived and introductions were being made...

I don't want to be negative and the intention here is to provide constructive criticism. I want to like this series, hell I want to like everything I read, which is why I comment whether I like it or not. I look forward to #3 to see where things will go, but my advice is take your time, use the full month and give it some more TLC, because the devil is in the details.

-M