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Post by Drake on Feb 4, 2015 22:59:47 GMT -5
Yeah, killing kids is the worst. As much as the GA franchise has changed in the New 52, it's much better off than it was immediately prior. Psycho Roy, Murderer Ollie, among other things make it tough to really support it.
I'm 17 and I can safely admit that I'm totally cool with marriage and kids in comics. I do think I lean more towards heroes closer to my age (i.e. people who wouldn't be married) but that's also true with personality, color taste, etc. Everyone's like that to some degree. Still, One More Day is my least favorite comic event in history, and while I can't say I hate Quesada (he helped give me Ultimate Spider-Man after all), I can honestly admit that Didio drives me nuts.
Remember, folks, it isn't the writers that are anti-marriage. It's the editors, and only an outspoken few at that.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Feb 4, 2015 23:13:55 GMT -5
That is very true, Drake. Most controversial comic book stuff like this can be traced back to editorial mandate of some kind.
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Post by thetrueelec on Feb 4, 2015 23:22:10 GMT -5
Yeah there are some editors who need to realise they aren't writers and to just let those are do their job, which is something it feels like Marvel is doing a really good job at and DC isn't so much.
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Post by Ultimate Silentking on Feb 5, 2015 0:09:32 GMT -5
DiDio hasn't learned his lesson. Despite the disaster that was Countdown which was partially made because DiDio was frustrated at how little control he had over 52. That and 52 made a bunch of money and DC would be kinda crazy to not cash in on it with another weekly series.
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Post by thetrueelec on Feb 5, 2015 0:28:48 GMT -5
It was also done because 52 ended up moving away from what it was suppoosed to do with explaining what happened in that missing year to Batman, Wondy or Superman.
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Post by jordan on Feb 5, 2015 20:36:42 GMT -5
Just a thought, but Editor's jobs are to ensure that the comics being produced are going to make the company money. I think a lot of people forget about that when they hamper on an editor. Yes, DC's editors more than likely take it a bit far, but in general, it is there job. Considering how well financially DC actually does, I'd say editors are doing fine. Could they be better? Yes. Could they be worse? Yes. But if writers were going to be writers and do whatever writers wanted to do, DC would probably have a lot of comics focusing on Ragman and Talon, and DC and Marvel would go out of business. Writers do need guidelines for a business to work, which is something to keep in mind while hating editors. You really shouldn't be mad at them, you should be mad at the rabid fanbase whose buying habits dictate what an editor and company do.
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Post by adrini on Feb 5, 2015 21:02:59 GMT -5
Yes and no. They do what the marketing department *thinks* will sale. The average comic book reader, according to the pole at the most recent comic con, is roughly 35, married, with kids and likely to be female. There was much nerd rage at this finding, I found it rather amusing.
The marketing department is hell bent on breaking into the 13-18 (male) range, they've had limited success.However that puts them up against video games, computer games, concerts and social things like keg parties and dates(and the is still a stigma related to reading comics). It's not remotely the percentage they wanted, and it's a group that at most has an allowance or part time job.
In the process they've pissed off over two million 30+ year old readers who largely feel left behind or thrown under the bus. These are people who have not only full incomes and thus spending money but also kids they could bring into the comic book fold. However if you look at that sales category from 2010 to present day they'd hemorrhaged readers in that group. The 19-30 isn't looking to good either, but at least the 13-18 up? And they've *barely* begun to understand that they have female fans. They are used to having a nice little boys club and they have every intention of keeping that way. It's sad.
Their market has changed, their understanding of their market has remained the same.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Feb 5, 2015 21:39:19 GMT -5
Editors should make sure that what the work writers is quality stuff and isn't terrible.
What happens more often than not is that the editors make "editorial mandates" and try to be writers, or worse, force writers to do a story that doesn't work.
Also, DC is not doing well financially. Even their good titles are getting canceled now.
While editors are part of the problem, and while we do need editors, if I'm going to be mad at anyone, it's the marketing team, the people who go "Hey, this issue where a major character died sold like hotcakes. Let's just start killing everybody!"
Writers should be writers, editors should be editors, and marketing should stop trying to make creative decisions.
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Post by Drake on Feb 5, 2015 21:48:18 GMT -5
Yeah, they need to improve a lot. I would like to throw in that the poll taken at Comic Con was of the attendees, not comic book readers. There are certainly around as many comic book fans that are woman as there are men, but over half of the readers are men. That's the biggest problem. If comic book companies really knew what they were doing then they'd capitalize on the number of female fans and make them readers. There's actually probably way more women now than men who are potential readers just because reading is more of a common pastime among modern women as opposed to men, at least in my experience. I can't tell you the number of males I've met who haven't read a book in over a year, and the number of women who can't even tell me the number of books they've read in a month because they've read so many. Again, I repeat, that's not all men or women, but just the general populace I've encountered. Then again, reading is dying slowly in general. It's sad, but true. Electronics are taking over everything.
The teen market certainly isn't lost, but Adrini's right. There's just too much else to choose from, comics are thought of as "nerdy," and they're expensive. If you want to take the habit seriously it definitely requires more money than if you buy, say, a video game a month, and most teens can't even afford that. Now, it's certainly not impossible. I manage to make do with a nice, consistent job, and by spending every dime I earn on gas, comics, or occasionally food/movie/date thing. As implied, I also manage to keep up my social life, so it's bullshit that anyone thinks comic book reading teens are too weird to get a girl/boyfriend, or that a comic book reading adult can't become married. The general public can be ridiculously stupid sometimes.
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Post by Drake on Feb 5, 2015 21:50:34 GMT -5
Editors should make sure that what the work writers is quality stuff and isn't terrible. What happens more often than not is that the editors make "editorial mandates" and try to be writers, or worse, force writers to do a story that doesn't work. Also, DC is not doing well financially. Even their good titles are getting canceled now. While editors are part of the problem, and while we do need editors, if I'm going to be mad at anyone, it's the marketing team, the people who go "Hey, this issue where a major character died sold like hotcakes. Let's just start killing everybody!" Writers should be writers, editors should be editors, and marketing should stop trying to make creative decisions. DC's doing fine. I mean, they're not kicking ass, but no one in the industry is. The top tier titles that are being cancelled (I'm assuming you're talking about GL and...well, that's all I can think of) are only being cancelled for Convergence marketing reasons and so they can revamp their line. Why are they revamping their line? To compete with Marvel's nonstop relaunches.
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Post by adrini on Feb 5, 2015 21:52:00 GMT -5
Exactly. There have been a number of market research studies done on who exactly are buying and reading comics, as well on what segments have the greatest brand loyalty. The results are consistent. They are older (25+), roughly 49% female and have a history with the companies in question they want to continue. Even better - want to pass on. They are passionate about this.
They are ignored. When these firms offer to help with marketing and offer their research to boot they are told to leave in no uncertain terms.
The focus of the comic book companies (yes Marvel to) is on the male teen, period. They love the male teen. The male teen does not love them. Among male teens study groups comics are liked in the movie and tv sense, but the majority of even fond viewers have no intention of buying a single book. They'll tivo the show so they can finish the level of Halo they've been working on and get to it later - that's all you get the vast majority of the time. Of those who do pick of a book it rarely becomes a hobby. That's the stats.
I'm overwhelming convinced it has to be come boys club MRA thing - they are sitting on an incredible amount of money.
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Post by Drake on Feb 5, 2015 21:59:31 GMT -5
It's not 49%. I promise it's not. Go into a comic book shop (I've been in a dozen or so all across the nation) and it's mostly men. Even with digital sales men are probably the majority but that was my point. It's a problem. www.comicsbeat.com/market-research-says-46-female-comic-fans/It's only Facebook likes but imagine if that was transferred to sales. The comic industry could be doing so much better. I also don't agree with comics being marketed to teens at all. I think's marketed to a mid-20s male demographic. Just look at the "return of the 90s." I certainly wasn't old enough to experience that, and yet it's still surging back into comics. I also believe comic books are slowly being marketed towards women, but it should be moving a lot faster than it is. Ms. Marvel's a perfect example of how it is happening, and why more of it should be happening.
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Post by adrini on Feb 5, 2015 22:01:05 GMT -5
Yeah, they need to improve a lot. I would like to throw in that the poll taken at Comic Con was of the attendees, not comic book readers. There are certainly around as many comic book fans that are woman as there are men, but over half of the readers are men. That's the biggest problem. If comic book companies really knew what they were doing then they'd capitalize on the number of female fans and make them readers. There's actually probably way more women now than men who are potential readers just because reading is more of a common pastime among modern women as opposed to men, at least in my experience. I can't tell you the number of males I've met who haven't read a book in over a year, and the number of women who ca No women are readers, you're just not going to see them in shops. Comic shop culture is part of the problem. I'll put it this way. We live next to a comic shop. Spend WAY more money there then we really should - comics, games, you name it. We started going there over a year ago when we arrived in the neighborhood and the first thing I asked for was Black Canary ANYTHING. Shirts, belts, figurines, anything. I'm desperate. That was 13 months ago. NOT ONE THING YET. That's with me coming in on a monthly basis asking for it. Why? "They don't sell." An exact quote as I'm standing RIGHT THERE with my wallet in my hand. I'm not kidding. I'm part of the secret society of female comic book readers, and we don't buy them in shops, we've all had to deal with the bullshit. We buy them online. Often. But we've largely had it but the sexist BS in the stores.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Feb 5, 2015 22:12:52 GMT -5
Women are a lot bigger share of the market than you'd think, and certainly larger than comic companies give them credit for, and it has been for a long time. In 1941, even, 90% of women of all ages read comics.
It's true you don't see them in comic book stores, mostly because there's this culture that specifically alienates female geeks as this mythical unicorn. Any independent research shows that women make up one of the larger demographics of customers in comics, but this gets ignored by comic book companies who are either trying to target only teenage boys or the equivalent of the fat comic book guy from Simpsons.
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Post by cross on Feb 5, 2015 22:18:46 GMT -5
LIVE ACTION NIGHTWING!
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Post by Drake on Feb 5, 2015 22:18:58 GMT -5
I still don't agree with the "teenage boy" thing, but I'll give up on the women argument. You two have been around longer than I have.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Feb 5, 2015 22:26:02 GMT -5
To be clear, I'm not saying that only teenage boys buy comics, I'm just saying that there are those in the comic book industry and related positions who think that they're the only demographic. It's the one of the reasons quality shows like Young Justice and Avengers: EMH get axed in favor of more "kid-friendly" Marvel shows.
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Post by Drake on Feb 5, 2015 22:40:42 GMT -5
Teenage boys don't watch "kid-friendly" shows. They never have and the comic companies know that. If you were trying to make an argument for 8 years olds, sure, but 13+ are much more likely to watch Young Justice if they watch a cartoon at all.
That's not just my taste. That's the taste of every single comic fan teenage boy I've encountered.
EDIT: I also understood what you were saying and I disagree with it. I think it's a decade old mindset that hasn't adjusted to the modern times.
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Post by thetrueelec on Feb 5, 2015 22:50:40 GMT -5
I'm with Drake in that it really seems the companies are less targeting teens and more the guys, and almost entirely guys, who have been reading comics for a while. Though Marvel seems to be putting an effort into at least having female led books.
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Post by Drake on Feb 5, 2015 22:51:43 GMT -5
Axel Alonso is actually very pro-women readers, and that's why you've been seeing a rising tide of female-led books at Marvel even though most of them don't sell.
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