Endless Knight: Ultimate Batman Discussion

[thekillingjoke]

First issue should be done shortly. Also, for the sake of mystery, I'm going to forgo any secret files.

[thekillingjoke]

#1 is up. Enjoy!

[jackalope]

Just read and enjoyed it. A questions (feel free not to answer if its giving too much away). Will the whole story take place in the future? ie will we see any present day batman?

Looking forward to next installment and seeing some action. Vampire batman is definitely one scary mofo.

[Toriach]

I do not wish to be unkind, but at the same time I do not believe in prevaricating. To put it simply I did not care for it. On the grounds of quality of the writing it was quite good. And if the story was an elseworld, sort of an Ultimate Batman: Red Rain I imagine I'd be quite in love with it. However as part of a shared universe I find it a bit off putting that the author has in essence walled Batman off into his own little corner untouchable by making the time frame four years into the future. Also while I certainly understand that each person is free to interpet the idea of "Ultimate" to their liking, to me it's about finding the core essence of the characters. Does this some times mean taking the characters down some fairly odd paths? Absolutely. To use an example from the Marvel Ultimate line, well two really, having Thor first believed to be a delusional ex mental patient, and having Tony Stark be suffering from a brain tumor are two of the most striking. Again this is all open to interpretation, but to me Batman is about a child who holds onto grief so tightly that it warps his entire life, causing him to seek to make himself more than human so he not only will be beyond that grief, but also beyond ever being hurt again. So for me vampire Batman, while an interesting variant (again I'd love this as an elseworld) just does not speak to the core of what Batman to me is about.

So over all while the execution is certainly very good, and I'll no doubt be keeping up with the story to see how it unfolds I must say honestly that if this were on the racks at my favorite comic shop it would probably get a glance, but not a purchase.

[C_Miller]

I see where you're coming from, Toriach, but I'm willing to give TKJ the benefit of the doubt. Like you said, this was extremely well written and the more well written stuff we have on the site, the better in my opinion. I also think there's more to the story than just what we have been shown here.

So yeah, very well written TKJ and I look forward to more.

[darthphere]

I don't really know what to think about this. I will start off with saying it was good, really good. Extremely well written. Loved how you decided to go about the origin so to speak and just letting it flow within the present (or future?) storyline. On the other hand, the shared universe aspect is something that has to be addressed.

[thekillingjoke]

I should mention that I edited something in Alfred's phone call scene. Nothing major, but it was irking me and I felt it was important for the scene.

I'm not sure where Toriach got four years. But anyway, here's the thing: I've left myself a 200+ year window to work with, so there's really a shitload of stories I can tell. I wanted to place Batman in a cyberpunk-esque setting and the only way I could see it happening was by throwing the time frame 100 years forward. This allows me to be pretty creative with villains in regards to whatever technology might be available then. Not everything will happen in the future or the past, that much I know. I also know that Robin will never appear in my material and Bruce Wayne will never appear in a costume (or at least I doubt it at this point). This 200+ year window leaves room for interaction with other characters from this universe, but will the Joker appear elsewhere but the future? I'm not sure yet, but probably not because I'm still toying around with ideas.

My philosophy toward writing this kind of material is this: If I want to read the same old Batman, I'll pick up a comic book. If I want to write the same old Batman, I'll go apply at DC comics. But I'm here, and I'm here to take 70 years of history as inspiration and put my balls to the wall with it. You don't have to like what I write, but it's happening.

[thekillingjoke]

Also: #2, shit's going down.

[superecwfan1]

I admit its an interesting change. One I never expected with Bruce being a vampire and all. Plus being that far into the future. ill give it a chance before i think its so radical.

[Kefka's Laughter]

I spent tonight reading the gamut and yours was by far my favorite. I think the most interesting part will be getting a handle on your interpretation and how that will lend itself to any future modern stories using the character.

[Stardrifter]

I don't want to be another stick in the mud, but I gotta be honest. I didn't like it. In a shared universe view, I don't like someone writing such a close future. It could really hamper the rest of us.

As for the writing itself, I understand you were going for an artsy style. I find the way you did the dialogue off putting and some of the dialogue itself unnatural.

I really am not trying to be a dick or anything. I like the ideas you have going, though as said not in the shared universe, but personally I didn't like the it. But I'll keep reading and see if it grows on me.

[thekillingjoke]

Star, I see no point in cluttering up pages with useless marks that distract me from the material. Periods and apostrophes and the occasional semi-colon and comma are what I prefer to use. I find it much easier to read this way.

As for everything else. Like I said before: You don't have to like it. But it's happening.

[Stardrifter]

I know it's happening, and I said I'd keep reading. I just wanted to share my honest opinion, just as I would expect others to do for me.

[blueeyeddevil]

You use the word "and" way too much. Break some of your sentences up.

At first I was a little put off by what you were doing with the time line, but I can't completely fault you for makling your own little sandbox to play in when I'm kinda doing the same thing.

The concept seems decent enough, though, so I'll keep reading.

[The Wonderful Wachter]

It's not artsy and your attitude isn't the best.

"Star, I see no point in cluttering up pages with useless marks that distract me from the material. Periods and apostrophes and the occasional semi-colon and comma are what I prefer to use."

Something like that doesn't tell me you're trying to be unique. It just shows me you're lazy. You can't waste the time to move your pinkies to make quotations. Your writing is difficult to follow without it and otherwise marvelous dialogue is ruined.

I also agree with the people who have commented about yours not feeling anything like part of a shared universe. If you don't want to write the same old Batman or Batman with the core elements then fine, there's an Elseworlds page for that. As it is, with your claiming Batman and central aspects of his gallery and universe, it puts the rest of us in a pickle. That said, I'm willing to wait since you've only done the first issue and it's no use trying to predict where you're going and what sort of timeline you will have.

Alright.

Annoyed (yet brief) rant over. Time for some actual useful constructive criticism.

Your settings are wonderful. Truly give image to what you're wanting us to see in our heads. On the other side of things, your descriptions of people fall short. You make Dent seem like it's going to be something jaw dropping and I thought you'd put the same effort as setting but... it's phoned in. And maybe because I was distracted by your lack of quotations but I have absolutely no clue how your "freakish" Bruce Wayne looks. He has wings I take it?

I love the dual narrative you've got going and you broke up the two stories perfectly. I'm serious about that. A lot of people have trouble finding where and when to break up a scene but yours is flawless. You do it in such a way that it never loses the flow.

I am looking forward to where you're going with your story but like I said in my jackass (me, not you) section, it doesn't really feel like it fits with the others just yet.

Alright, between my rant and feedback, this is getting long. I'll leave some for Issue 2. Apologies for being harsh in the top part of my post but I really didn't like the way you reacted to your detractors.

[entertainer13]

While interesting, I'm going to be honest. I had a hard time reading the story due to the lack of punctuation use.

For example:

Are you going out Master Bruce? Algernon asks.

I’m not sure Algernon. I was going to walk around the grounds a moment and perhaps go into the city. How is your shirt still clean?

Oh. Luck I imagine. Are you not joining your mother and father for dinner?

I think not Algernon. I’m not terribly hungry now.

Very well young sir. Your father will be disappointed. He so enjoys dining with his only son.

I know. Thank you Algernon but I need to gather my thoughts and reflect on some things. He should understand.

I am sure he will. Your father was once young too after all.

Yes. I suppose that’s true. Thank you Algernon, Bruce says and makes for the steps again.


First, by not using quotation marks, I sometimes make the mistake of continuing to read Algernon and Bruce's dialogue as the same. If you didn't continually have them say each other's name - which as a side note, leads to stilted and unnatural word and dialogue flow - I would have gotten lost.

Second, look at the last line again:

Yes. I suppose that’s true. Thank you Algernon, Bruce says and makes for the steps again.

This could be read multiple ways. I had to re-read it at least a few times to make sure I understood that, after only a dialogue back and forth, you had put in some action. On the other hand, this would have portrayed the quick exchange in an easier to peruse manner.

"Are you going out Master Bruce?" Algernon asked.

"I’m not sure Algernon. I was going to walk around the grounds a moment and perhaps go into the city. How is your shirt still clean?"

"Oh, luck I imagine. Are you not joining your mother and father for dinner?"

"I think not Algernon. I’m not terribly hungry now."

"Very well young sir. Your father will be disappointed. He so enjoys dining with his only son."

"I know. Thank you Algernon but I need to gather my thoughts and reflect on some things. He should understand."

"I am sure he will. Your father was once young too, after all."

"Yes. I suppose that’s true. Thank you Algernon," Bruce said, making for the steps again.

That took me all of five seconds to add (well, ten counting the grammatical and language flourishes, but those are personal quirks). It's easier to read, not cluttered, and easier for a quick look over, rather than appearing to be a "double-spaced" block of text.

I don't mean this to be snobby, or simply to disregard attempts at exploring new ways to write, but centuries have passed - centuries - enforcing in the human psyche, certain written clues that allow a reader to know that a character is beginning to talk, ending said dialogue, and handing the new line off to the next person. Simply throwing these signals away detracts from communication, rather than streamlines or enhances it.

Perhaps you could switch to a straight up script style, if you prefer simple, snappy language, over adding the flourishes of action within those words. Either way, a better way of separating dialogue from action, and the dialogue of other, is paramount to good writing.


As a second note, I would be wary of setting Batman's stories apart from the rest of the new UDCU. Part of the goal of these projects is creating an inclusive universe, and when you wall yourself off, it makes that hard. If you would rather focus on the implications of a Red Rain Batman throughout the centuries than trying to create a universe with fellow writers, perhaps the elseworlds pages would be a better fit. Especially with you throwing away the use of any and all Robins and other side characters.

As a FINAL note, I do have to say, this IS Ulitmate DC. I actually applaud doing something a little unorthodox with Batman. Makes things more interesting. I do have to say, though, I invariably say at the lack of a "real" Batman, but that's just the fanboy in me. The ideas are very sound.

[thekillingjoke]

Jun 19, 2011 20:40:02 GMT -5 The Wonderful Wachter said:

It's not artsy and your attitude isn't the best.

"Star, I see no point in cluttering up pages with useless marks that distract me from the material. Periods and apostrophes and the occasional semi-colon and comma are what I prefer to use."

Something like that doesn't tell me you're trying to be unique. It just shows me you're lazy. You can't waste the time to move your pinkies to make quotations. Your writing is difficult to follow without it and otherwise marvelous dialogue is ruined.

I also agree with the people who have commented about yours not feeling anything like part of a shared universe. If you don't want to write the same old Batman or Batman with the core elements then fine, there's an Elseworlds page for that. As it is, with your claiming Batman and central aspects of his gallery and universe, it puts the rest of us in a pickle. That said, I'm willing to wait since you've only done the first issue and it's no use trying to predict where you're going and what sort of timeline you will have.

Alright.

Annoyed (yet brief) rant over. Time for some actual useful constructive criticism.

Your settings are wonderful. Truly give image to what you're wanting us to see in our heads. On the other side of things, your descriptions of people fall short. You make Dent seem like it's going to be something jaw dropping and I thought you'd put the same effort as setting but... it's phoned in. And maybe because I was distracted by your lack of quotations but I have absolutely no clue how your "freakish" Bruce Wayne looks. He has wings I take it?

I love the dual narrative you've got going and you broke up the two stories perfectly. I'm serious about that. A lot of people have trouble finding where and when to break up a scene but yours is flawless. You do it in such a way that it never loses the flow.

I am looking forward to where you're going with your story but like I said in my jackass (me, not you) section, it doesn't really feel like it fits with the others just yet.

Alright, between my rant and feedback, this is getting long. I'll leave some for Issue 2. Apologies for being harsh in the top part of my post but I really didn't like the way you reacted to your detractors.

My writing style is not a matter of being unique. It's a matter of efficiency for me personally and if you have trouble following it then that's your problem and no fault of my own. My personal preferences don't ruin anything.

It sounds like you and many others are irritated because I choose multiple time frames and you can't go willy nilly with Batman's rogues gallery. If it puts the rest of you in a pickle, well, I'm not sure what to tell you. Use your own characters? Use other appropriate characters within continuity? Be more creative? Worry less about the world I'm building and worry about your own? I don't think criticizing my writing because you can't take Joker on a joyride is a valid point.

That said, I appreciate the constructive criticism. There's a fine line between too much and too little description.

[blueeyeddevil]

tkj, I definitely get your point that you shouldn't feel obligated to make your characters accessible for others to use, and I commend you wanting to do something different. What I think others are put off by is that this story has very little resemblance to the character of Batman as we all know him. Combined with how you've kind of separated yourself from the continuty that is being attempted here, it raises some questions. for instance, why are you choosing to make such a departure and still call it Batman? It seems like if you came up with a few superficial detail changes and original character names, you could just tell this story as something completely your own. I'm curious as to your process in this respect.

[darthphere]

I feel like I should jump in here as FoxMulder's right hand on this site . I think it's easy to say that TKJ's Batman on this site has been seen as slightly controversial. I understand the complaints against it and it's fair to say that I share some of those views. However, TKJ has only written one issue of this title and I think we should allow time for him to develop the character and his title. I think it's only fair. I applaud TKJ for doing something out there with an established character. It's ok if you don't like it, stop reading it and move on.

Now, what I'm seeing here is some piling on by some of you. I think we're all for constructive criticism but there's a point where criticism just becomes annoying. I think grammar and writing standards are important. At the same time, this is not a high school writing class. We can let things slide. Nobody here is perfect. This site is here for us to have fun. I can see where detailed break downs of how a section of my writing sucked could well not be fun.

At the end of the day, I like to follow the saying of if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all. That's my personal choice. I'm not saying you should follow that, I actually like and welcome the criticism. At the end of the day, each writer is going to choose how to write their titles. Some will like it, some won't but lets not get bogged down in negativity.

[entertainer13]

Jun 19, 2011 21:38:21 GMT -5 darthphere said:

I feel like I should jump in here as FoxMulder's right hand on this site . I think it's easy to say that TKJ's Batman on this site has been seen as slightly controversial. I understand the complaints against it and it's fair to say that I share some of those views. However, TKJ has only written one issue of this title and I think we should allow time for him to develop the character and his title. I think it's only fair. I applaud TKJ for doing something out there with an established character. It's ok if you don't like it, stop reading it and move on.

Now, what I'm seeing here is some piling on by some of you. I think we're all for constructive criticism but there's a point where criticism just becomes annoying. I think grammar and writing standards are important. At the same time, this is not a high school writing class. We can let things slide. Nobody here is perfect. This site is here for us to have fun. I can see where detailed break downs of how a section of my writing sucked could well not be fun.

At the end of the day, I like to follow the saying of if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all. That's my personal choice. I'm not saying you should follow that, I actually like and welcome the criticism. At the end of the day, each writer is going to choose how to write their titles. Some will like it, some won't but lets not get bogged down in negativity.

This isn't a case of getting bogged down in negativity. This isn't a case of teaching writing "101". This is a case of warning a writer that by disregarding writing techniques taught by 7th and 8th grade, all in a pursuit of expediency, he risks making his stories inaccessible. I've made my case for using the millisecond to hit the quotation mark keys on the keyboard, and it is now up to KJ to either heed or disregard that advice. There is simply the consequence that his writing will be hard for many to read, thus alienating readership. If he doesn't care, that is his choice.

Yes, this isn't a high school English course, but one of the reasons to join a writing group is to improve one's writing skills, learn new techniques, and grow as a writer. Obviously, KJ is trying something, we're reacting. It will happen. I really don't see the problem in trying to use this project partly as a help for fellow writers.