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Post by darthphere on Jun 19, 2011 21:52:44 GMT -5
I feel like I should jump in here as FoxMulder's right hand on this site . I think it's easy to say that TKJ's Batman on this site has been seen as slightly controversial. I understand the complaints against it and it's fair to say that I share some of those views. However, TKJ has only written one issue of this title and I think we should allow time for him to develop the character and his title. I think it's only fair. I applaud TKJ for doing something out there with an established character. It's ok if you don't like it, stop reading it and move on. Now, what I'm seeing here is some piling on by some of you. I think we're all for constructive criticism but there's a point where criticism just becomes annoying. I think grammar and writing standards are important. At the same time, this is not a high school writing class. We can let things slide. Nobody here is perfect. This site is here for us to have fun. I can see where detailed break downs of how a section of my writing sucked could well not be fun. At the end of the day, I like to follow the saying of if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all. That's my personal choice. I'm not saying you should follow that, I actually like and welcome the criticism. At the end of the day, each writer is going to choose how to write their titles. Some will like it, some won't but lets not get bogged down in negativity. This isn't a case of getting bogged down in negativity. This isn't a case of teaching writing "101". This is a case of warning a writer that by disregarding writing techniques taught by 7th and 8th grade, all in a pursuit of expediency, he risks making his stories inaccessible. I've made my case for using the millisecond to hit the quotation mark keys on the keyboard, and it is now up to KJ to either heed or disregard that advice. There is simply the consequence that his writing will be hard for many to read, thus alienating readership. If he doesn't care, that is his choice. Yes, this isn't a high school English course, but one of the reasons to join a writing group is to improve one's writing skills, learn new techniques, and grow as a writer. Obviously, KJ is trying something, we're reacting. It will happen. I really don't see the problem in trying to use this project partly as a help for fellow writers. I understand, trust me. Every time I write something I learn something new. The point I'm trying to make is, he gets it, you guys want him to use quotation marks. Wait for issue #2 and see what happens.
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Post by shadowflames43 on Jun 22, 2011 1:45:26 GMT -5
I liked the writing and the setting. But I do have a complaint and a nagging need to nitpick.
My complaint is what's being established. It is true that yes, Batman could take part in the stories of the past and that yes, Nightwing is acting as Batman of that time as well. But more of the characters your using in your future setting.
Short of time travel, any character you use is gone. And that's fine, to some ends, if the character is minor or tied to Bruce in such a manner that including them otherwise is impossible. But you essentially took Harvey Dent out of the picture for the whole universe. That's a little selfish, it'd be like me taking 5 major villains and a high end super human and killing all of those villains.
Aside from that, three things to nitpick. I agree, quotations would help.
Two, if you do choose to time travel(essentially the only way to use Bruce Wayne in the past), try not to send Bruce Wayne himself into the past. He's a detective. I'm sure he watches TV. Having him meet himself would be painful. It wouldn't be so bad if he was human during the active time period, but use used the setting and tone of the 19th century to good effect.
I don't mean to try to impose a limitation on your story, and I'm not even sure where you plan on going with this or how, if you were to use it, your version of time travel would work. But that's my opinion, that that form of time travel would not end well.
Three, and this is incredibly small, but the situation where they assume his age. Ignoring the ever growing life expectancy, in a post Enron world, they'd probably be keeping good track on him at least as early as 2010, so they'd probably figure him to be a centurion at the very least. But he's probably smart and rich enough to convince them that he had a son anyway, and simply going by 'Bruce Jr.' would probably shave some years off his life.
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Post by jackalope on Jun 27, 2011 2:32:05 GMT -5
Well written. Nice twist that he is his parents killer. The only thing I'm finding right now- and it may change- is I don't really like Bruce, or Alfred, who are the heart and soul of the batman universe. I am interested to see where this is going. In my head I skip between Gotham by Gaslight and Batman Beyond.
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Post by The Wonderful Wachter on Jun 27, 2011 19:54:48 GMT -5
Nice job, TKJ. You improved on character description and once again show you know how to paint a scene so fantastically that one can both see and feel what's happening.
My only complaint is one I'll always have and that's just me being me. The lack of quotations is annoying BUT the way you present your dialogue is relatively easy to follow and does flow into one another. The only time it becomes an issue is when you mix a speaking lines into the larger paragraphs. A few of the large Alfred paragraphs took multiple skims to properly understand.
This will be the last time I complain about this point since I know you don't care unless for some odd reason an issue is so difficult to follow that I can't take any enjoyment from your otherwise fun to read writing.
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Post by blueeyeddevil on Jun 28, 2011 1:33:06 GMT -5
Your dialog was good in this one, and easier to follow than in your first chapter. Kinda saw what would happen with his parents coming, but that wasn't a problem. Wasn't expecting him to get away from Anne that quickly though.
Still need to work on your descriptions. Maybe you are trying to keep a full reveal till later, but I'm still not entirely sure what Bruce looks like. Same with Powers.
My biggest complaint is one I had last time. Stop using "and" so much. It slows down your prose and makes your writing come off too repetitive.
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Post by thekillingjoke on Jun 28, 2011 18:06:04 GMT -5
Well, I'll be honest. There's no big reveal or anything like that. I just choose to give little or no physical description unless I think it's necessary. And in Wayne's case, the less I give the better. I'd rather let any descriptions come through actions or dialogue because pushing the brakes to describe someone's physical appearance is awkward to me.
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Post by superecwfan1 on Jun 29, 2011 14:39:23 GMT -5
I just wanna say this. I'm not that great at grammar and make mistakes. It happens. TKJ is trying and will get better I'm sure at using spell check and putting periods or question marks at the end of sentences. He will do it in time. Story wise , I kinda don't like this Bruce Wayne. He's basically an inhuman monster who killed his parents. Theres not a lot to cheer for or to really get behind. If he was a man trying to be human but is a monster , maybe we will see it in more detail in the issues following. That he really wishes he could get that. And thats why he uses the blood bags from a hospital.
In all , its a radical departure. Love it or hate it.
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Post by thekillingjoke on Jun 29, 2011 20:02:24 GMT -5
I'm a little confused about the spell check and period comment. I'm pretty good about proofreading my stuff.
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Post by thekillingjoke on Jul 29, 2011 23:51:41 GMT -5
New issue of Batman is just about done. After I proofread it a little it ought to be up within the next couple of days. I decided to be more direct about my writing this time and drop a lot of the poetic phrasing.
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Post by jackalope on Jul 30, 2011 16:33:26 GMT -5
Story is solid, and it's interesting to see where you are leading this character. The western thing was a bit of a surprise for me, though it seems like it's a genre with lots of potential. I'm now wondering what period of time will you bring in the Joker- and will he be a Vampire? I think I found it less enjoyable to read without the poetic phrasing, but thats just personal preference. With Talia now in Bruce's mansion, I keep imagining Beauty and the Beast... Anyway, keep it up.
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Post by Ryan on Jul 30, 2011 18:36:45 GMT -5
I'm really coming around to this take on Batman, it was good. I'm the opposite of of jackalope, I liked it without the poetic phrasing.
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Post by thekillingjoke on Jul 30, 2011 19:35:37 GMT -5
I talked to Chris about some of my plans for Joker. I really want to introduce him next issue, or at least set the stage, which will probably be the case. Joker's going to be a big deal, and it's going to be different, much like everything else.
I'm still reflecting on this issue and the extreme minimalist take I used on it. I'm really a fan of only giving as much description as needed to move things along and paint pictures, but the poet in me likes to put my heart out there occasionally too. That said, I'm glad you enjoyed it regardless of the change of style.
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Post by thereddeath on Aug 2, 2011 10:37:38 GMT -5
Just finished the first issue. I don't know what the protocol is for commenting on past issues, but I'm just going to post as I go along.
This was the series I was most looking forward to reading in this "Ultimate DC" project. Vampire Batman always struck me as a really natural idea. It reminds me of when I was really young and I'd use my various "Batman Returns" action figures as vampires, because there were always a million Batman toys out there. So I have a certain nostalgic affection for the idea.
As for the story itself I enjoyed it, and especially liked the time-segues between the two eras. Marrying a vintage noir Gotham setting with the future setting vaguely based on "Batman Beyond". I don't know if that's a device you'll maintain in the next issues but I'll quickly find out.
I'm reluctant to mention any criticisms since I've only read the first issue so far, but one thing I would say is that it's sometimes hard to follow who's speaking and when. You don't put dialogue in quotes or often specify who's speaking. Sometimes that's fine and you can just figure it out contextually, but sometimes it got a little muddled. But again, maybe that's not true for issues 2 and 3.
---
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Post by The Wonderful Wachter on Aug 2, 2011 10:41:29 GMT -5
Nah. He sadly sticks to his guns with no quotes but it does become somewhat easier to follow and the story remains quite interesting.
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Post by thekillingjoke on Aug 5, 2011 16:07:31 GMT -5
I can understand it might be difficult to read at first, but I make a point of inserting he says to mark who's starting the conversation and if there's one person involved in the conversation I may not bother to say he says with that person, and after initial he says I don't bother including more of them unless there's an action I feel a character absolutely must take. To include more of them would just clutter up the page and interrupt the flow.
I'm sure everyone's noticed by now I'm not fond of quotation marks. I feel they're ultimately unnecessary so I don't use them. I thought about setting off dialogue as the French language does but I didn't care for that either. So I did away with all related marks altogether because he says does the job. Anyway, just because it's a convention doesn't mean it's a hard and fast rule of writing. I'm not the first person to do without quotations and I doubt I'll be the last.
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Post by superecwfan1 on Aug 6, 2011 14:53:13 GMT -5
It was an interesting read for the Western part. But so far I keep waiting on Batman or Bruce to show me anything ...good. Instead he rips a guys arm off . The western part made it nice for me. But so far I keep waiting on things to turn and make Bruce someone to rally behind. To believe in. Maybe it will happen in #4 .
As far as " " marks , well have ya tried different colors for each person talking in a conversation ? Because its still hard to follow dialogue wise. Its a suggestion and could help. If Bruce talks in "Grey" color and someone else in a different one , it may help .
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Post by thekillingjoke on Aug 6, 2011 17:08:10 GMT -5
Bruce Wayne is a man who's been forced into unusual circumstances. With his outer appearance being so horrific, he's fearful of the outside world and confines himself to his home. He's not a hero, and he knows he isn't. He killed his family during his initial bloodlust and the memory haunts him. He hates what he's become but wants to find something that will prove to him that he isn't the monster he believes himself to be, which may be the only reason he hasn't killed himself. Sometimes he feels like dying but lashes out in self-preservation because he truly wants to live. Wayne is tired of hurting people and tired of hurting himself, but his self-hatred rules over him. Somewhere there is hope, but he has to be willing to find it. But is he? I think he is. A hundred years of self-hatred for your sins is enough.
As for colored dialogue: No.
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Post by superecwfan1 on Aug 10, 2011 7:24:37 GMT -5
Thats cool. To each their own. I only brought up the colored dialogue for that reason for those of us harpin over it lol.
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Post by blueeyeddevil on Aug 20, 2011 4:48:38 GMT -5
Is that your real name, or is Spunkwater a pen name?
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Post by thekillingjoke on Aug 22, 2011 10:56:56 GMT -5
It's a pen name.
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