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Post by Drake on Sept 27, 2015 13:08:32 GMT -5
DC YOU actually isn't about the dark and grittiness the New 52 was. It's about the opposite, in fact. The problem is most of DC's stories just aren't as good as Marvel's stories, and DC fans tend to be pickier than Marvel fans, so the new lines was rejected by plenty. Ultimately, despite statements to the contrary, most fans will buy any comic with certain titles (namely Justice League, Thor, Batman, etc.) no matter who's under the mask, for how long, or whatever history they have if it's good. DC YOU's had some good comics, and some bad ones, while Marvel has tended to lean one way.
EDIT: Convergence proves old fans' love of old continuities doesn't mean they'll actually support jack squat.
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Post by adrini on Sept 27, 2015 13:50:37 GMT -5
The old fans were chased off. Of course they didn't show. Happens when you tell people to walk, there will be nothing more for them. The only reason I even knew to look them up was because they were talked about here. Fans I talk to now have to be informed. Sad, but they were clearly told to walk away. And they did. I still say Didio hates money.
I go by the best "experts" I can get, around here that's shop owners. There's one in walking distance, four beyond by car. They all say the same thing, title or not, people aren't buying. Books just sit there. Even events aren't doing it for them anymore. How it is. Our local guy even pulled low selling titles for free for free comic book day and couldn't give them away. Batman titles were among them. That shocked me, it's bats.
Now is this our city, one town. But Dayton isn't tiny. And the reports like this are coming from all over. Here and there people seem to like it, and that's fine, but it's not that many. Which is why out local shop still won't carry the three titles I want to try, and likely why they still haven't come in after three months. Why put money into a department that isn't making any?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2015 15:21:18 GMT -5
It isn't erased, that's the thing. There's just no on-going stories at present. The comics still exist, you can pick them up, read them and enjoy them. They're just not being published in the same context. Nothing has been replaced. Nu52 is a different universe and some things are the same, some things are different.
I think it might be a bit more than "some". Admittedly, people have left and it has cost DC money. I won't argue that - but we're in a difficult position now, in that...you can't kill the Nu52 in favour of getting the old universe back, because you have fans of the Nu52. Unless DC have multiple lines of comics coming up concurrently, there's no easy remedy. There's an arguement that comics are produced for the future and they want to include and gain more new readers, rather than dip into the ever shrinking pool of old fans who complain no matter what (and they do, and did).
I am more than aware of Valiant and it's amazing growth. However, for every Valiant you have companies like Atlas, which tried to revamp and died a death very quickly. Their output was pretty decent, but it didn't catch on. I don't think that's necessarily the case, in terms of Didio kicking people out. Van Jensen went from XO to Green Lantern, Lemire from DC to Marvel and Valiant, and is still at DC. Van Lente never really wrote a huge amount for DC, so that's more Marvels loss. I don't think that DC is telling fans to shove things down their collective throats. A lot of the artists haven't jumped ship from DC, they've just got work at Valiant. That's like saying Clayton Henry got booted out by Marvel, but was rescued by Valiant. It's just not accurate.
I think they're saying "Hi, we're trying something different like we did in the 70's. Let's see if this sinks or swims" and at the moment, it's treading water. It ain't working for some, but is working for others, and that is where the major issue is. By saying that it needs to go back to the way it was is invalidating the feelings and loyalty of readers who have picked up the Nu52. They'd feel exactly the same way if it all went back into place, and they'd be vocal in calling DC out. They're in an unenviable place currently. Would the reaction be as strong if the Nu52 readers got "shafted". Probably actually, because they're computer literated younger people i.e. The Future. Making comics is a long term creative business plan, but it has some very emotive fans. You cater for the dwindling pool of older people who read comics, eventually, your pool is going to be small enough to suck up with a straw. If you cast your net out and try and get back to the ocean? That's a good plan, but, fishing is bloody risky business.
I see what you're saying however, I just don't feel the same level of heart-wrenching anger over it. I think, the future is the future, and these are the comics we have. If we don't enjoy them, we stop buying them. If we do, we buy them. No amount of hand-wringing and yelling is going to make a damned bit of difference if people are still buying stuff they don't like.
My original point was, you're damned if you do make an original character, and you're damned if you revamp. So, it's almost a case of..."stuff it., let's do whatever is more creatively satisfying" or "Why even bother?" I don't
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Post by adrini on Sept 27, 2015 16:17:46 GMT -5
I never said erase the new-52. It has fans, fans pay money and they need money. But I wouldn't call it a future. Or at least not the only future.
I'm fourth gen DC, we got on at the first stop in the 30's. Whole family got into it. Only, and this isn't happy, we aren't anymore. I'm the closest thing we have to a fan we have now. We also know other "heritage fan" families (ie where fandom is passed down) and they've dropped the company as well. Told to leave, remember? I was read JSA in the crib, but when I was talking to my cousins recently and I mentioned Superman all I got was "that violent guy from the movie who was grumpy all the time" before they ran off to play with their captain america toys. Obviously rescuing GI's from the battle of the buldge does more for them then watching people die and not caring. Can't blame them. All the same my grandfather was rolling in his grave I'm sure. But that's how it is now. Hurts like hell to be left behind like that after so many decades and generations.
My idea from before new-52, which I highly doubt has has many fans as a 70 year history BTW, was to have more the one line. More lines= more ways to make money. And they need that right now, badly. Every pre-new 52 fan I knew/know (haven't seen them since the reboot) normally dropped $30 bucks a month. Now they drop nothing.
By all means, have the new line there, but when the company is so openly struggling why turn away millions of fans who want to give you money? Is Didio's ego really worth passing up that kind of flow?
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Post by adrini on Sept 27, 2015 16:50:37 GMT -5
I never said erase the new-52. It has fans, fans pay money and they need money. But I wouldn't call it a future. Or at least not the only future, every comic shop owner I've talked to miss the old fans. They bought more. Their kids did to.
I'm fourth gen DC, we got on at the first stop in the 30's. Whole family got into it. Only, and this isn't happy, we aren't anymore. I'm the closest thing we have to a fan we have now. We also know other "heritage fan" families (ie where fandom is passed down) and they've dropped the company as well. Told to leave, remember? I was read JSA in the crib, but when I was talking to my cousins recently and I mentioned Superman all I got was "that violent guy from the movie who was grumpy all the time" before they ran off to play with their captain america toys. Obviously rescuing GI's from the battle of the buldge does more for them then watching people die and not caring. Can't blame them. All the same my grandfather was rolling in his grave I'm sure. But that's how it is now. Hurts like hell to be left behind like that after so many decades and generations.
My idea from before new-52, which I highly doubt has has many fans as a 70 year history BTW, was to have more the one line. More lines= more ways to make money. And they need that right now, badly. Every pre-new 52 fan I knew/know (haven't seen them much since the reboot) normally dropped $30 bucks a month. Now they drop nothing. Think about how much money that is.
The 70's were....rough. I inherited those books, was the core of my collection. Some okay stuff, some good, mostly they having no idea what they were doing. At all. It was almost painful to read sometimes. That was when I got introduced to Oliver for the first time. And I hated his guts at first. Man was worthless. In the bond-era "sleep with as many women as possible" mode. Got better in time, mostly Black Canary beating his ass into fine powder till he got the point. His whole team walking away as they were sick of his shit. Didn't blame them at all.
It was after they managed to blend the old and new and it got much better. I was only a kid but there was a marked difference, like the sun coming out. I hope something like that happens again. What comics taught me, keep the best, play with the rest.
However it's not my call. Powers that be will decide if I have the world to pass on to my kids the way by dad did to me, and his dad did to him, and on and on. If not well, it's one less cost. Even if it is sad. But I'm not passing down an impostor world. To much of an insult to those that came before. I'll jsut have to get aggressive about getting those back issues.
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Post by thetrueelec on Sept 27, 2015 22:50:30 GMT -5
First off DC didn't erase 70+ years of continuity, they erased less than 30, the other 40+ having been erased with COIE. Secondly the reason they rebooted is that there comics were selling badly, it's easy to say DC alienated a lot of long time fans but judging by the numbers most of those fans weren't reading when the reboot happened anyway. Thirdly it's easy to say they should just bring back the old universe and have both run at the same time but fans have shown often that they care a lot about stories that 'matter' and having two universes is going to make one irrelevant, there's a reason marvel never had a lot of Ultimate books out at once. Fourthly the new universe is getting better, DCYOU and the comics that caused it are great, they are bringing new readers in and in comics that is the most important thing a comic can do.
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