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Post by adrini on Jul 30, 2015 21:47:28 GMT -5
I'm putting in the basics now. Being stubborn. Then as we go I'll post various links/descriptions of content. Make it known we need writers.
Can't hurt.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 14:21:27 GMT -5
Yeah, make it known what titles are up for being written as well. As far as I can see, Adrini is the most active in terms of being recently updated, but I'd imagine that titles like Justice League, Wonder Woman, Superman, Knights etc...they're not going anywhere for the foreseeable future, and those are big titles with a lot of history and characters.
Not knocking it by any stretch, but there are a lot of hoops to get through to get going. You need to know continuity, the world set up, things like...if you're a big DC fan and you want to come in and play, you've got to Read GL history to write GL. You can't use Gods or New Gods, and Time Travel is kind of frowned upon, not overtly, but, it's mentioned.
So, that leaves you with limited big guns. Now me? I'm not so interested in big guns. Been thinking on a Flash series for ages and ages, but not sure I want to go there. Don't take this as complaining, I'm just trying to get my head around how I'd begin to start with this. Solo series is best for me, I think, but i've been poking around in some shape or form for ages. If I came to this new, I'd be a bit daunted.
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Post by adrini on Jul 31, 2015 15:40:41 GMT -5
Part of that is working in a group effort, if everyone has something things get claimed. But I get the message.
Also a big part of the reason DOB, Drake and I have taken as much as we have is because others walked out. People walking in would be *wonderful*.
JL is in the process, we're close and taking guest writers when we get there.
Updating the cont' would be helpful. Hell, even posting that on the Fb page would help.
Please, any input is welcome.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Jul 31, 2015 16:14:52 GMT -5
It's sort of a chicken and egg thing. Yes, I've been spending the past few months looking for work, I also have to decide whether I should focus on cleaning up this site in terms of aesthetics, organization, promotion, etc. where I don't even have full admin control or start a mirror site, see how many people are willing to move to the new site, and whether or not I personally have the time to construct and maintain such a site. I have to consider this while also considering if it's worth it, if I build it will people actually come? Most of the times I've checked back in I've had very little contact from anyone.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 16:29:04 GMT -5
Well, this are things worth getting out in the open if you ask me. I've noticed a very distinct drop, especially when you compare it to Allstar.
Obviously, DoB, if you're looking for work that is a great priority, and I wasn't suggesting you should drop all of your titles, or what not, either. Obviously, you're the driving force behind the site, as are Adrini and Drake, because you guys have picked up a lot. Also, I should make it clear - I'm not complaining and I'm not trying to attack, this is just trying to get some indication of how active this place is...
I don't think starting a mirror site is the end of the world. Content like this can be ported across pretty easily, it's just if people are willing to cross post their issues. I dunno what to suggest to get all the content back up - like I said, I've spent ages trying to work out how I'd do an "Ultimate Flash" if you get me, without it running away with me. I have plans, of course, but they're all very long running and I feel like that's kind of short-sighted of me, in terms of trying to finish a story rather than plan something that will have me writing for years and years.
Don't get me wrong, I want to see this site do well too, it might just be a lull in the writing world, or people move on from these sorts of things. Who knows?
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Post by adrini on Jul 31, 2015 16:41:43 GMT -5
I know DOB could do without writing both WW and Sups. Drake and I are working on the 'haven/Gotham world. I, personally, would love a writer who knows the really old stuff like I do.
I can easily break out the DC book and make a list the main people that haven't been done yet. One issue that has come up is working with others. IE can't do everything. This is a cooperative site.
There are writers who just want to do their own thing, and that's great. But in a group project you need to consider that ending your world in your story causes a problem in others. That's where the time travel comes in. One writer, the catman title, had one person show up. Not a problem. Another wanted to open a portal in the sky. More of a problem.
I'm calling it needs...three more people? Not super bad, but I'm going to work on that page none the less.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 17:03:49 GMT -5
Well, I suppose it's up to DoB on whether he wants to continue both titles. I know if I was him I'd probably want to do that. I think the other issue is that, say, I might not want to write Superman in the same way that DoB does. That kind of limits what I'd want to do (hypothetically, you know.) because as you say, this is a shared site, what one does, affects others. I am a fan of DC from the olden days, but I'm not against the kind of more modernised approach either, because this is Ultimate DC, not just DC Fanfic. Or TV Fanfic.
It's a superhero fanfic group, I suppose world ending threats is par for the course. Time Travel is what the writer and writers make it - my view is that the more rules you have in place for creativity, the more you're writing a world that isn't for all writers, but for just a few. Legion is a great concept, but it's limited because there needs to be a way to bring it into the current time. Not necessarily something that hasn't been done before that kind of negates the originality of the Legion.
Opening a portal in the sky seems like kind of a weak argument. Aliens invading might be a big issue for other writers as well, but I am sure that's allowed. One portal does not break a universe, especially when time travel is involved. Hell, the Speed Force might be a big issue for other writers, it is what the writer makes of it. Time Travel can be as simple as something from the old Atom comics, where Ray visited scientists without interrupting anything.
Sorry, I don't know what you're trying to say with your last sentence.
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Post by adrini on Jul 31, 2015 17:35:58 GMT -5
It more a matter of posting stuff to make sure. The bulk of the time an event - time travel or destruction - isn't a big deal. Maybe once or two it's even been questioned, and one of those times it was altered. But when what you do can effect someone it's just a courtesy to ask. Even if it shouldn't be a problem. Others don't know everything you have planned, and they don't know you. Most writers get this, but some didn't want to verify. I get having a vision, I have my own, but when you work with others you act like it.
And I meant that I'm working on the facebook page. You want in, Drake?
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Jul 31, 2015 19:20:06 GMT -5
Superman's done. He's free to be claimed. Granted, he's in Justice League which is continuing, but I've tried to make it clear that people in JL can be shared.
The titles I'm actually trying to get to a stopping point so I can lighten my load are on the Marvel side, but over there my plans are entwined with a few other titles so it'd be difficult to drop them without screwing over another writer.
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Jul 31, 2015 21:55:10 GMT -5
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Post by Stardrifter on Jul 31, 2015 21:55:10 GMT -5
So, hey. Gonna kinda ramble a bit from topic to topic here.
I'm more of a DC fan than a Marvel fan, which is why for the longest time I was trying to be active here and didn't really want to get into the Marvel site. I had a couple titles, dropped some, continued some, dropped some more. Some times it was because I felt like things were a bit one sided in reading and replying to others while no one seemed to be doing the same for me. Looking back, while I feel like that was the case at times, I also think part of it was that I was too quick to claim titles that weren't the right fit and I didn't have the right drive for. So while I don't necessarily think my feelings were wrong, I could have handled things better. I think I'm in a place now with my two titles at ASM where I'm more comfortable with a lack of replies because I'm more passionate and self motivated for what I'm writing.
I've debated coming back to write a couple times. There's a few problems with it. One, the site sucks. The color scheme is so draining on me. Compared to ASM, which is bright, it's such a downer to me to try and read here. And it's ridiculous that you were stuck as the mod but not given the admin power, DoB, so I know it's not your fault. So my own personal opinion is that the site would do better if remade on a board where you were admin, but I know that would mean even more work and that's not necessarily fair to you. It's a tough decision.
Secondly, a big part of what deters me is the continuity. There's so much abandoned history here, and some is my own fault I'll admit, that it's hard to find something to come back to. I've thought about Green Lantern but it's such a mess where it was left off and not at all what I would want to continue from. I even considered Superman but, while I did enjoy your run DoB make no mistake, it's not where I would want to come from on the characters.
And while the reboot at ASM really worked out this time, I've seen reboots that just become band aids to a deeper wound. So it's a roll of the dice to see if it sticks and works, all the while not being fair at all to those of you still writing here being forced to give up your hard work. So, another tough decision.
Honestly I don't know what the best course would be. I definitely think the board needs to move though. I'm not joking when I say that when I load up the page on my phone or computer that it just hits me like a wave of dread. The site just isn't pleasing anymore and really needs a new, energizing appearance. Even if I never came back as a writer, it would at least make me come back more as a reader.
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Post by adrini on Jul 31, 2015 22:23:08 GMT -5
Changing colors is easy. I'll learn to do it if I have to.
As for history I will do whatever I can to integrate whatever you like. Working in history is something I am always into. PM me and we'll get started. I've been trying to keep up on my own, evidently I didn't do well enough.
You've been missed.
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Post by Drake on Jul 31, 2015 23:12:40 GMT -5
Adrini, I deleted my Facebook account a year ago. Never used it, and was tired of all the emails and notifications. Sorry!! If it was Twitter or Tumblr I could help.
Frankly, the colors are a major problem for me. I agree with Star 100% about that.
I'd move. I really think I would. However, it would be REALLY hard to move all the titles and continuity to a new site. Hell, maybe we'd just need to end up dropping some extra continuity (like GL). I dunno. I'll follow this site no matter what. However, I am slightly nervous that if we moved I'd just stay on as a reader and use the move as an excuse to drop some work. Even still, there's a good chance I'd stay on, and the move could ultimately (pun intended) have major, positive effects on the site.
And LOL All Star's reboot success was at least 50% luck.
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Post by adrini on Jul 31, 2015 23:29:12 GMT -5
Okay, so the black isn't working (I was able to over look it, but I'm easy), rebooting is iffy, we only need few people, and the facebook page already has 80 followers. I'm going to build up what we have for a few days then list things open to new writers. The people I'm pulling in are long time readers - they know their stuff. At least one or two should work out. I've known them for awhile, friends.
And no, you wouldn't drop, Drake. Watcher already did that to me, please don't again. I can only write so many titles a month.
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Aug 1, 2015 0:48:14 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by adrini on Aug 1, 2015 0:48:14 GMT -5
100 people now. We're a hit.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2015 2:39:30 GMT -5
Yeah, but, following and caring enough to visit/join the page are two different things. You might have 100 followers, but you don't have any new members joining as of this post.
I'm not saying a reboot would help either, because, let's face it, that's more luck than it is by design. People have to get the title they want and stick with it - like DoB has with Wonder Woman, and Adrini with GA. The reality is, most people want to write the big name characters - Batman, Superman, Flash, GL etc.
If we have dormant titles, like say, GL, then why not put a Retcon on those and start the slate a fresh, that way, if someone wants to write GL...they could begin again? Or like, sorry Star, Shadowpact which is only a couple of issues deep.
I do also think that Star hit it on the head when he spoke about taking titles we're not necessarily up for writing completely because it is draining writing something you're not in love with, especially with restrictions. There are certain things that I'm not sure of, you know, like I wanted to write..say, Cir-El, that would need some discussion with the Superman writer. I've always liked obscure characters, or given it's an Ultimate setting, then I'd want to start with the next gen down rather than the current guys - like, say, work with Superboy/Supergirl instead Kal'El, or put Karen in the Big Blue Suit, or if I wanted to use say, Maxine Baker, I'd need to claim up the whole of the Baker family, which I wouldn't necessarily want to use.
to be perfectly honest and frank, I don't know what I want to do and I think that's a big part of the problem with other writers joining. There's nowt you can do about that either. Today I thought it might be fun to have Aquaman's next volume start with the focus on Lorena, but isn't that essentially the same as what Star did with Aquaman, but with a girl instead of a guy?
I'm sorry, not trying to turn this isn't a brainstorming thread. Not sure what my original point was now either.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Aug 1, 2015 8:23:14 GMT -5
The questions I have to ask myself when I try to figure out what to prioritize:
There are only three, maybe two and a half writers on this site I'd currently call active. Two of those writers are me and my wife. The third, Drake, has already mentioned that he possibly wouldn't continue as a writer after his current title, or if we do a reboot. So yes, there's a lot of work that needs to be done, including updating the board's graphics and colors, and organizing the continuity into something less intimidating, but those are major projects, and I have to ask myself would that actually increase the site's traffic enough to be worth the effort? Should I really try to promote this site to get new writers and readers if I have to either set up a new site or do some major renovations to this one?
If I did a reboot on this site, I would not be 'canceling' the current universe, just opening up a new one for new writers to play in. Reboots and retcons make sites like these completely pointless. Why try to build a shared universe or work in a shared continuity if your work is just going to be destroyed in the next site reboot or if the next writer who comes along decides to wipe everything away and start from scratch?
Furthermore, while setting up a mirror site would be more work and potentially a waste of time, would it be a bigger waste of time to try and clean up this site, only to find a mirror site is eventually inevitable? Would trying to move to a mirror site kill what little life this whole thing has left?
If I don't have the time or energy to work on all four titles a month, as well as do real life stuff or try to work on original fiction I might be some day able to publish, which ones do I work on first? Which titles will I lose forever if I'm unable to update them this month, and which can I extend if I need to without stepping on other people's toes?
I still have chapters on my hard drive for a title I wanted to write on ASM pre-reboot, and before I could even try it in the current continuity on ASM, I have to establish a lot of stuff in continuity first. The questions I asked myself when I picked my title to write for ASM were: If I choose to only write Ms Marvel, will I even have a Captain America or a SHIELD to be able to integrate in my backstory? Will the rest of the Marvel mainstays eventually be picked up by other writers, like Iron Man, Hulk, or Thor? Or will they remain out of continuity and get traded between authors until I take initiative, like Superman?
How much of either universe do I write on my own, and how much work can I do on either board, before I give up and just go to fanfiction.net?
In case it comes across as such, I'm not trying to attack anyone on either board here. The lack of traffic here isn't really anyone's fault. If it anyone's, it's mine since being the admin left makes it my responsibility. These are just the questions that run through my head on a daily basis, along with the usual batch of depression, self-loathing, and paranoia.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2015 10:20:48 GMT -5
Well, if you're having those emotions anyway, I'd suggest some time off the internet because that's not a healthy state of mind.
To answer your questions with more questions;
A lot of Marvel/DC characters have rich internal lore, and part of the messiness of sites like this is that people immediately want to try and introduce their definitive version of said character. If you're writing Ms. Marvel...why do you even need to introduce Captain America and others? Cap isn't essential to the Ms. Marvel lore. Why do you need to introduce loads of stuff so you can reuse your ideas from before the reboot...why not continue afresh and develop new ideas instead of forcing things to come into existence for an older idea? This is a new universe, you don't have to follow the same rules as the other universe. You don't need to have a Thor, if you have someone who can fill that hole, who can still act in a similiar capacity.
Following and repeating the same storylines, but with slightly different variations isn't exactly very "Ultimate" it's just the same stuff with a different filter on it. Why do you need Thor? What does he fulfill in your backstory, your world? Why do you need Captain America, for SHIELD, when SHIELD is a peace keeping agency? Sure, he's important in the main MU, but ASM isn't the main MU. You could just as easily say "Hey, I can't write my Moon Knight story without introducing D-Man beacuse there's a bit that takes place with some homeless people, and you can't write Homeless without D-Man". It it's part of the story, sure, that makes sense, but if it's doing it for the sake of it...that's exactly what causes issues in the first place.
Incidentally...why don't you go to fanfiction.net? What keeps you confined to one board? Why not merge Allstar and UDC together, not necessarily a blended universe, but two universes on one forum. At least then you'd be able to just do maintenance on one site, one core area? It's all about efficiencies.
At the moment, it seems as though you're at a catch-22 impasse. You don't want to move because it may well be a lot of work to do it, and get it set up, only for the same few people to be involved, however, at the current level of activity and confusion, the site isn't terribly welcoming. So, which way do you go? I really don't know, but I'd imagine you have to go with one or t'other.
So what options are available?
Ask someone else to build a message board and port the information over, so you don't have to, and then when they're done, you become admin and they switch out? Perhaps build one slowly rather than throwing everything at it? Maybe pull back on titles and have fun since this is supposed to be fun, not a chore, not designed to make you feel bad about yourself or the world.
Do a soft reboot perhaps? Clear off some dead wood, and just leave it cleared. No need to destroy the work of you, or adrini, or Drake, but just wipe up what's happened with GL, etc?
Perhaps rescind some of the prohibitive rules, like, say, no New Gods? or, no Time Travel? Or try to build collab between titles - something light. Not talking about an event, but some kind of team-up title, a quick fun thing that's only a few 1000 words. Green Arrow goes out for a beer with Wonder Woman, Black Canary is visiting Gotham, Man-Bat is taking a little flight through Metropolis. Character pieces that build a world, but from the pieces of the characters already in place.
Maybe I'll pull my finger out and actually write a couple of issues so I can pitch a title? on that note, if you're worried about writers doing stuff...why not introduce a pitch system, so you know the broad points of their story ahead of time?
Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but it's always easier to see pain points from outside of a thing rather than from the internal workings.
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Post by adrini on Aug 1, 2015 13:17:24 GMT -5
Well, if you're having those emotions anyway, I'd suggest some time off the internet because that's not a healthy state of mind. To answer your questions with more questions; A lot of Marvel/DC characters have rich internal lore, and part of the messiness of sites like this is that people immediately want to try and introduce their definitive version of said character. If you're writing Ms. Marvel...why do you even need to introduce Captain America and others? Cap isn't essential to the Ms. Marvel lore. Why do you need to introduce loads of stuff so you can reuse your ideas from before the reboot...why not continue afresh and develop new ideas instead of forcing things to come into existence for an older idea? This is a new universe, you don't have to follow the same rules as the other universe. You don't need to have a Thor, if you have someone who can fill that hole, who can still act in a similiar capacity. -We've already made swaps. The BOP is BC, BW and Cheshire. But we honor core things, we love them. Following and repeating the same storylines, but with slightly different variations isn't exactly very "Ultimate" it's just the same stuff with a different filter on it. Why do you need Thor? What does he fulfill in your backstory, your world? Why do you need Captain America, for SHIELD, when SHIELD is a peace keeping agency? Sure, he's important in the main MU, but ASM isn't the main MU. You could just as easily say "Hey, I can't write my Moon Knight story without introducing D-Man beacuse there's a bit that takes place with some homeless people, and you can't write Homeless without D-Man". It it's part of the story, sure, that makes sense, but if it's doing it for the sake of it...that's exactly what causes issues in the first place. -Not really. Being different for the sake of being different is the way we got the new-52 mess. We have changed when needed, that's reality, but not more. There's no need to destroy to adapt. Incidentally...why don't you go to fanfiction.net? What keeps you confined to one board? Why not merge Allstar and UDC together, not necessarily a blended universe, but two universes on one forum. At least then you'd be able to just do maintenance on one site, one core area? It's all about efficiencies. -Two different leaderships. At the moment, it seems as though you're at a catch-22 impasse. You don't want to move because it may well be a lot of work to do it, and get it set up, only for the same few people to be involved, however, at the current level of activity and confusion, the site isn't terribly welcoming. So, which way do you go? I really don't know, but I'd imagine you have to go with one or t'other. So what options are available? Ask someone else to build a message board and port the information over, so you don't have to, and then when they're done, you become admin and they switch out? Perhaps build one slowly rather than throwing everything at it? Maybe pull back on titles and have fun since this is supposed to be fun, not a chore, not designed to make you feel bad about yourself or the world. -We try the basic stuff (seen above), I get more then 11 hours to pull new people in. If people are fried now the effort of a move isn't a good idea. Do a soft reboot perhaps? Clear off some dead wood, and just leave it cleared. No need to destroy the work of you, or adrini, or Drake, but just wipe up what's happened with GL, etc? -We'd really have to talk about that. Call old people in. Perhaps rescind some of the prohibitive rules, like, say, no New Gods? or, no Time Travel? Or try to build collab between titles - something light. Not talking about an event, but some kind of team-up title, a quick fun thing that's only a few 1000 words. Green Arrow goes out for a beer with Wonder Woman, Black Canary is visiting Gotham, Man-Bat is taking a little flight through Metropolis. Character pieces that build a world, but from the pieces of the characters already in place. -Characters cross over all the time. Look at Kights. And the rules were covered. A group effort needs means to make sure one person does not screw over everyone else. They're working hard getting titles out as well. Maybe I'll pull my finger out and actually write a couple of issues so I can pitch a title? on that note, if you're worried about writers doing stuff...why not introduce a pitch system, so you know the broad points of their story ahead of time? -That's...one of the ideas we came up with. Simple notification. Most didn't have a problem with it, but a couple people did. They didn't want ANY controls. Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but it's always easier to see pain points from outside of a thing rather than from the internal workings.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2015 15:02:45 GMT -5
Fair enough, you make fairly solid points.
I guess I disagree with you on the "being different for the sake of being different" front, because, while there are issues with Nu52, there's also some really great stories that have come from it. Also, not saying "for the sake of it" just saying...why do you NEED those characters to tell the story of someone else?
Like Hulk REALLY isn't necessary to tell the story of Ms Marvel, for example. Sure Hulk is a mainstay of Marvel but he isn't necessary for a new universe to tick over. That isn't being different for the sake of it, that's being pragmatic.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Aug 1, 2015 15:46:51 GMT -5
Could I do without some elements? Sure. Without all of them? I'd have to rewrite everything. The Ms Marvel I was going to write needed an established universe, needed a SHIELD and a HYDRA for her experience as an agent, needed Captain America as a figure for her to look up to, needed Hulk as a figure to compare her strength and anger issues to, needed Stark for the influence his technology has on the universe. The title I was trying to write ONLY worked in a universe with the main elements of Marvel, including the Avengers. Not every concept works when written from scratch in a vacuum. Trying to write in DC without ANY reference to Superman and Batman because their existence was in constant flux was a hindrance, and DC's really good about being able to keep their properties isolated from one another. It's a major pain to try to write in Marvel and only hoping that someone brings in the Fantastic Four, Pym Particles, Iron Man, Hulk, Captain America, SHIELD, HYDRA, and not be able to reference any of the above until someone writes more than two issues and decides whether they're writing an origin story or if the characters have been in existence for years.
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