Longbow Hunters , Green Arrow Discussion thread.

[superecwfan1]

Thanks guys , #4 will be up around the same week Hawkman 12 comes out. I had started to use a villain , had it mostly wrote out and realized...it was too soon for that. So I scrapped it and rewrote #4 around a whole new villain.

[Stardrifter]

Was a nice initial outing for GA, but it felt kind of short. The action was a bit rushed. Also needed proof reading. But on the plus side, I do like your take on GA and I'm interested to see where you go. Keep em coming.

[superecwfan1]

The latest issue and read of Green Arrow 4 is up. It features a surprise villain emerging. It also has a Secret Files and Origin so far . Its also the last twice a month deal and I will go to a once a month posting for it. Due to a future mini-series and other work coming up .

[jackalope]

Grape Ape?- awesome. Reminds me of Harvey Birdman. Whilst I do wish your issue was a little longer I really like your pacing. I'm enjoying how you're using Montoya, and am curious to see what you do with Dinah. Does Queen Industries, or anything like, exist in this storyline?

[buck]

I love having Ollie working his own case. Has the chance to present Ollie's cleverness in sandbagging his investigation without making himself look incompetent.

[The Wonderful Wachter]

I second Buck.

On the issue of proofing, your biggest problem is using your for you're/you are.

[superecwfan1]

This is why I sent Buck GA #5 to edit. I was gonna hold off til 7 and do 2 more in Jan. But with so much going on and all , I'm gonna do 1 a month for awhile on Green Arrow.

[superecwfan1]

Ok Buck must have been super busy. I wouldn't have done this but I needed to get #5 up and this was the final day of Jan. I didn't wanna miss a date with Green Arrow since well... the series new take needs to come out steady. Hopefully Buck understands why I went ahead and posted #5 without his finished edit. Anyhow part #5 will showcase some surprising things with Dinah. So happy reading folks.

[The Wonderful Wachter]

You got me. My ability to predict story endings was off on this issue. I thought a Canary would save the day.

[C_Miller]

Very good. I enjoy the Ollie you're developing who clearly is different from his normal DC self, but still hasa lot of carry over.

Also love Dinah. She's always been a favorite of mine and was even on the roster of my original JSA line-up when I first had the title.

[jackalope]

Enjoying it. His development is steady and I like how he's handling himself. Good work man.

[Deleted]

Ok, so got a chance to check out #1-5, comments for all 5 issues included here in a single post...


Green Arrow #1 Reactions

Solid set up. Not sure if I like the idea of Ollie as a cop and military operative, as I prefer my Ollie as the anti-authoritarian, but I am on board to see where this goes.

The interactions between characters was very good, and some personality has emerged, but there was a lack of description that left the characters felling like moving blank slates. We get a nod of description here or there, but nothing resembling a complete picture of any character. As I have said elsewhere when commenting on other stories, comics are a visual medium, and we have no visuals, so it is incumbent on us to be aware of that and provide a visual element in our story-telling. So while the character bits are good, they have nothing for us to hook them on to as an image of who the character is. You gave us a classic pic of Ollia as GA to begin with, but this Ollie seems so different from the Ollie in the pic in terms of background and personality that I am not sure I can hang this Ollie on that pic.

Other than that I think this was a strong start.

#2 Reactions

Different pic, still not sure what Ollie looks like.

I like where the story is going. Sometimes your dialogue and interaction is brilliant, and the story just flows, and other times your sentences are so awkwardly structured my eyes come to a screeching halt on the page, trying to figure out what is being said. I know you said you were doing the early issues without and editor, but this is something that needs a little love and attention as you write. Clarity is crucial to keeping reader interest.

You have a good instinct for character interactions, but some of it gets lost in the language. You can sense some of the chemistry and tension between both Ollie and Steel and between Ollie and Montoya. When you’re dialogue is clear it sparkles and really brings the relationships to life, when your structure is off, it really blunts the effect you are going for.

One thing you can do with dialogue when writing it to see if it works when you are not sure is to read it aloud, or better yet have someone read it while you listen. If the reader can’t get through the sentence in a natural tone, your structure may be off. However, dialogue is one of the hardest parts of writing fiction, and you have a knack for it, it just needs some tweaking and polishing.

Even with the structure issues, overall, I like where you are going with this.

#3 reactions

Still like the direction and really enjoyed seeing Ollie in action. We know what the costume sort of looks like, but not the man himself.

One thing I will say is at times you need to show not tell-for example when Ollie is first in action in costume you tell us Ollie is obviously enjoying it, but how do we know? Take the time to show us Ollie’s reactions, his body language, his actual thoughts or verbal reactions. Something we can sink out teeth into as readers.

The dialogue is still strong for the most part, but the same awkward phrasing creeps in from time to time.

A personal pet peeve-numbers should use the words not the numerical notation, so two not 2, first not 1st, unless you are using an actual number like an address or an actual place name (the warehouse is at 223 Elm Street, or on the corner of Main Street and East 23rd). It just always takes me out of the story as a reader when actual numerical notation is used in prose.

#4 Reactions

First, dialogue sparkles early on, gets rough in the middle. Less awkward phrasing early on, some begins to appear towards the middle again. Overall, it’s improving. But after 4 issues I have one major beef with the series…

Ok so the benefit of a solo comic over a team book is more time to delve into the whole picture of the character, their private lives, relationships, etc. and we are starting to see this a bit, but we are told that Ollie and Eddie are close, except, since issue #1 when Eddie was shot this is the first we saw of him. Not once did Ollie spare a moment to think about him, visit him in the hospital, call to check up on him, etc. If you want me as a reader to believe they are close, show it to me. Make time for the small scenes that flesh out those relationships. You’ve implied Ollie and Montoya have a relationship outside of work we haven’t seen it yet. Ollie doesn’t like lying to her-why? Give the character development some space in the story man, make me like Ollie as a person not as a costume with powers.

The plot is great, the interactions stellar, but build the characters more, dig into these people. Make me care about them. Ollie is struggling with the dichotomy of the secret identity, but we haven’t really seen what he has to sacrifice because of it because outside of the flashbacks with his dad we haven’t seen anything of his personal life, so the troubles and the sacrifice rings false. If we haven’t seen it, it must not be important, so Ollie really can’t be bothered by losing it. And I know this is not your intent, you want us to believe in Ollie’s sacrifice, but you have to make us believe-that’s your job as a writer.

I like the direction you are taking this, but Ollie still feels more like a piece being moved around than a fully fleshed out character after 4 issues. By comparison, in 2 short scenes with Dinah we know a whole lot more about her as a character than we do Ollie. The Dinah stuff has been fantastic, so I know you can do it, which only makes it even more maddening that you haven’t given Ollie, the main character as much development as Dinah has gotten in those 2 brief scenes.

#5 Reaction

So I really like the first meeting between Ollie and Dinah, and I like that Ollie has started to show a bit more personality. However, what does this meeting mean in terms of Ollie’s relationship with Montoya-what is his relationship with Montoya-we never saw that. Overall I liked the issue, but I still think Ollie’s life outside of the Chicago PD and the NSA needs to get some love and attention so we have a context to see what the new developments mean to Ollie’s life.

Dialogue much better, fewer rough spots and more just spot on interactions, but still have some awkward phrasing.

A quick grammar note-a lot of the awkwardness in phrasing and dialogue comes from 3 (three) things-agreement between subject and verb, using the wrong tense of verbs for the sentence, and the order of words within your sentence structure. Smoother sentence structure would help the prose flow better, eliminate the awkward phrasings and stop getting in the way of otherwise brilliant dialogue and interactions.

Overall assessment

So after reading all 5 installments I think this is really good, but needs to develop more context of Ollie’s personal life to give us something to ground Ollie’s story in and more care and attention in structuring sentences to improve the flow and clarity of the prose. I am looking forward to reading more (and to getting into your Hawkman stuff when I get a chance to get around to it).

-M

[superecwfan1]

well some quick notes...

- Oliver Queen's personality/origin : More of Oliver's life will emerge over time. We saw a small flash to him learning on the farm in Texas to shoot and fire an arrow.

Over time more pieces will slowly come out. I don't wanna do a full on origin arc. Since well... that wastes time this revamp of GA didn't need. So I wanted to in this ...get Oliver Queen into the costume and as Green Arrow. (which by #6...you will see how he gets the name)

I wanted to flip the switch with Hawkman and Green Arrow. Where as Carter Hall is a free spirit , who does whatever he wants ...and has lived numerous lives to do it...Oliver Queen is about order and duty.

In fact that was why after a falling out with the NSA , he went to Chicago when Montoya gave him a job. Its why he does this. You will see more of his origin and see what brought him to this.


- Montoya : She is clearly a friend of his and one he hasn't slept with who is female. In fact its the joke in the 1st issue where Queen quipped about Montoya there. They have a very combative friendship and will call him out.


- Eddie its clear wasn't seriously hurt at all. Not to the level Ollie needed to call and check on him on panel. Its brought up he took a bullet in the arm.

Plus Ollie was busy handling his 2 jobs. Cop by day , vigilante by night the 2-3 weeks Eddie was gone. He didn't have much time really as he was doing this.

About the pics- I was trying to figure out which one to use for GA. With Hawkman it was so simple and the 1st one I saw...I loved the most. With GA , its hard to find a good pic of the Oliver Queen I want.

So I finally settled on the image fro,m #3 onward.


I hope this answers some questions there for now.

[superecwfan1]

#6 is finally out. Buck was busy with work so I went ahead and posted this and tried to do the best possible job I could with it. Also it finishes the arc.

[The Wonderful Wachter]

I have a few issues with it before I get to the good stuff. Your biggest problem seems to be confusing words like your/you're, there/their/they're, and were/we're. That's something that one extra readthrough should normally be able to fix. Then there's something you share with Hawkman where whenever you have the flat out inner monologue (AKA: Colored text), it comes out forced. MRP's given great suggestions around the board about showing and telling. I'll give my own as the other major user of inner thoughts:

Spread them out, make the thoughts feel natural. Instead of them being there to spell out a plot point or reaction to what just happened, have it be something a bit more random. Give the thoughts personality instead of it being cliffnotes to what just happened in the scene or what happens next.

And here's a small one. We have a President now. If you use him in the future, you can feel free to name him "President James (Jim) Harper."

---

The good bits: Terrible Toyman is such a corny name that I love it. Also given any potential backstory we decide to give to Harper, it's kinda neat that he's the one that comes up with the name. Even if he has nothing to do with capes, there is the out of universe neatness to it. And finally, I'm a sucker for plot resolutions like that. I can't help it. I grew up on cartoons and the like where the villain escapes at the last minute but the day is still saved. You can't get any more cartoony than by using a guy name "Terrible Toyman."

[Deleted]

I'll keep this brief this time-read it, liked it. I will second most of what Wachter said and stand by my earlier comments about previous issues as most of what I mentioned was on display here again.
-M

[superecwfan1]

Yeah Buck has already told me about the whole "You're , Your and their , they're deal. He's already told me all about it and I have tried to work on that. Its one of my failures and I'm shocked it took so long before someone else called it out here lol.

Thought balloon wise .... I'm slowly easing off them as you can tell. Its not working the way I thought it would. Which was add more to the story and give some inner thoughts on a decision or what the character was doing in Hawkman's case at the end of #15. In GA's ccase it was basically 2 thought balloons more or less this entire read.

As far as President goes , I wrote this 3-4 weeks ago and it was before the decision to make it Jim Harper.

[The Wonderful Wachter]

Mar 1, 2012 1:08:38 GMT -5 superecwfan1 said:

Thought balloon wise .... I'm slowly easing off them as you can tell. Its not working the way I thought it would. Which was add more to the story and give some inner thoughts on a decision or what the character was doing in Hawkman's case at the end of #15. In GA's ccase it was basically 2 thought balloons more or less this entire read.

Yeah, I noticed. I've been cutting back a bit in Spoilers too. Not that because I don't like what I've been doing, I just have had less moments that require it.

As far as President goes , I wrote this 3-4 weeks ago and it was before the decision to make it Jim Harper.

Understandable. And as far as I'm concerned, you have our permission to keep Roy related to Jim Harper if you want. Just... If you make him his son or something immediate like that, let us know first.

[superecwfan1]

I plan to not make him related to Jim Harper at all. He will have the last name . But ...well ...you will see where that comes from .

[The Wonderful Wachter]

Haha. Can't wait.